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Year on Year our new cars are becoming more complex, is it necessary? We can't do home repairs, we can't even swap electrical parts anymore as they have to be 'coded' by the dealers
I have a simple suggestion:
Buy cars from makers who year in and out and decade in and out make reliable cars. That means fewer repairs are needed.
Buy from makers who do not code teh accessories.
Buy from makers who support owners if a fault turns out to be the maker's fault even if it is out of warranty.
That leaves you:
Honda, Toyota., Hyundai and Kia.
Simples:-)
Edited by madf on 03/12/2012 at 16:37
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Please be aware, Hyundai/Kia group do NOT and are NOT helpful with common, long standing build quality and failures on their cars.
I have had a vast exepreince with the Hyundai side and can speak from experience, Hyundai do not listen to UK customers, they begrudgingly listen to US customers when pressure is applied from on high.
Hyundai and Kia built reliable, simpe cars upto the start of the century.
Since then, the chase to join the crowed middle market has seen their products reliability diminish.
If you want to buy new and simple, the choices are limited.
The great wall steed 4x4 is simple.
The dacia duster is simple.
Edited by daveyK_UK on 04/12/2012 at 09:47
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Been driving since 1974. Love classics, have one in the garage but I can assure you that todays new cars are way better than new cars were in the 70's and 80's. Those on the whole were badly built, unreliable and rusted away in about 10 years. The first good new car I bought was a Golf in 1986, ran VW's for the next 17 years until the dealers sales dept became a waste of space.
For our everyday cars we run a BMW and a Kia now, best 2 cars we have ever had but still have a soft spot for that 1986 Golf.
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Have every sympathy and agree with much of the OP.
I think we had the best of all worlds in the 80s and 90s, safer more robust cars that didn't rot quite so badly in most cases as the earlier stuff, whilst usually able to be diagnosed and fixed for fair cost by the competent home mechanic and most indy's.
A good example of this is the '93 Volvo 940td SE estate which we owned and is now being appreciated by my sis, and we've kicked ourselves round the house umpteen times for selling it to her.
No ECU bar the ABS system as far as i can gather, mechanicaly injected simple turboDiesel, manual gearbox with switchable overdrive top, no DMF or DPF or any other carp to bring an eye watering bill.
It doesn't rust, built like a brick outhouse, industrial quality switchgear and controls, nothing wears out and it never breaks down despite all it has to do, including jump starting her Volvo artic several times a year when parked for a few days and the computers flatten the batteries when she forgets to switch it off at the mains, even that 24v surge when the lorry fires fails to upset that 940, i've towed 2 ton loads of sand with it which it laughed at.
If Volvo still made them exactly like that i'd buy a new one tomorrow, last for ever.
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Have every sympathy and agree with much of the OP.
I think we had the best of all worlds in the 80s and 90s, safer more robust cars that didn't rot quite so badly in most cases as the earlier stuff, whilst usually able to be diagnosed and fixed for fair cost by the competent home mechanic and most indy's.
A good example of this is the '93 Volvo 940td SE estate which we owned and is now being appreciated by my sis, and we've kicked ourselves round the house umpteen times for selling it to her.
No ECU bar the ABS system as far as i can gather, mechanicaly injected simple turboDiesel, manual gearbox with switchable overdrive top, no DMF or DPF or any other carp to bring an eye watering bill.
It doesn't rust, built like a brick outhouse, industrial quality switchgear and controls, nothing wears out and it never breaks down despite all it has to do, including jump starting her Volvo artic several times a year when parked for a few days and the computers flatten the batteries when she forgets to switch it off at the mains, even that 24v surge when the lorry fires fails to upset that 940, i've towed 2 ton loads of sand with it which it laughed at.
If Volvo still made them exactly like that i'd buy a new one tomorrow, last for ever.
My ma and pa had a Volvo 340 circa '88-'89 plate. They swapped it for some sort of Nissan, but would have kept it if it had power steering. The steering was too heavy for my mum. It was indestructible - someone ploughed into us (their fault, we were stationary) and their car had damage, our Volvo didn't dent! Dad mended anything himself - he taught me to do spark plugs on that car! A tank.
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If Volvo still made them exactly like that i'd buy a new one tomorrow, last for ever.
The problem is if you built a car as heavy and simple as the Volvo 940 today it would produce too much plant food out the exhaust and would cost a squillion pounds per year to tax and therefore wouldn't sell. This ridiculous notion that plant food is a pollutant is what's driving up car complexity but they wanted to find a simple way of taxing wealth and being a carbon-based life form on a carbon-based planet – carbon is the perfect consumption tax to feed the evermore greedy nanny state and keep the politicians (producers of nothing but hot air) in the luxury lifestyles they are used to. Subaru are suffering for the same reason, their sensible durable (long-term vale) car design ethos creates “high carbon footprint” cars – I expect them to have to knock out crummy eco-boxes like everyone else or face going bust.
Buy a good 2003 (before the VED went mental) Suburu Legacy Estate - it should last you a couple of decades.
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I agree with you Steve,
"If Volvo still made them exactly like that i'd buy a new one tomorrow, last for ever."
They were horrible to drive by todays standards and they were rust buckets like most cars of that era and would not last as long as they did as there is not enough filler in the world today.I remember when I had my first car business in the early eighties having to spend so much time on these rust buckets I swore I would never again take one in part ex.
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"If Volvo still made them exactly like that i'd buy a new one tomorrow, last for ever."
They were horrible to drive by todays standards and they were rust buckets like most cars of that era and would not last as long as they did as there is not enough filler in the world today.
I can't understand this, I've seen plenty of 760's and 940's and always amazed by the lack of rust. Likewise the later 850's. I don't know how Volvo do it without galvanising. Thicker, better quality paint and steel? Better seam sealant?
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As an aside the one thing the Nanny state politicians don't want us to know is that according to one of the major weather Bureaux Global Warming has been stalled for the last 5 years.
As an engineer all my life the one thing that was hammered into me as an apprentice & young engineer was the KISS principle, Keep It Simple Stupid anyone can design a complicated device it takes genius to make a simple device do the same thing. It is a pity that the young graduate engineers don't have this mantra ground into them. I ended up working a year past my retirement date because my employer couldn't find a replacement engineer to do my job.
OK that's my rant over!
Edited by tujags on 03/12/2012 at 18:41
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As an aside the one thing the Nanny state politicians don't want us to know is that according to one of the major weather Bureaux Global Warming has been stalled for the last 5 years.
As an engineer you will know no trend moves in a straight line.
30,000 years ago where I live was covered in 1 km of ice at -20C..- as was most of the UK.
And people say Global Warming does not exist? They are frankly ignorant idiots as the evidence is all around in the geology and the landscape and the mammoth bones in the English Channel..
As to what causes it, different story and here many of the Warmist are equal dumbasses.
Edited by madf on 03/12/2012 at 18:49
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No-one says it doesn't exist - the climate changes - that's why ir's called climate. It's the man-made aspect many of us disagree with, what caused the warming 30,000 years ago? Range Rovers? There was also a warm period 1,500+ years ago when there were Roman vineyards in London. Aslo warming stopped more than 6 years ago, it stopped around 1998 which co-incided with reduced sun-spot activity.
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". Aslo warming stopped more than 6 years ago, it stopped around 1998 which co-incided with reduced sun-spot activity."
Lets see: the world has been warming for 30,000 years.
On the basis of 6 years you claim warming stopped.
Risible..
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Yes it's a blink of the eye - actually not even that long relatively. The world has been warming for thousands of years interspersed with a few cool periods (which we have been in for about a 1,000 years). I also remember at school being told we are overdue another ice age. The point I made earlier is man can do nothing about it – blaming it on man's CO2 production when not only is atmospheric CO2 at a historical low, it still amounts to trace amounts compared to what nature produces is the risible aspect! Plant growth is increased until a 5% atmospheric saturation point is met – which is millions of times higher than the CO2 content today. Surely increased plant (and crop) growth will benefit mankind? I'm all for reducing pollution but CO2 is not pollution. The treatment of CO2 as a pollutant is what has caused the mass switch to diesel cars – then having to deal with the nasty (actual) pollutants they spew out along with making them acceptably refined and powerful for passenger car use adds complexity to the vehicle design.
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And man does not have the power to alter it, the Romans had vinyards in Cumbria most of Europe contained an inland sea we can all quote arguments to suite our strategy but no amount of windmills will change the future.
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One decent volcanic eruption in the wrong place could send us all back into an ice age.
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30,000 years ago where I live was covered in 1 km of ice at -20C..- as was most of the UK.
And people say Global Warming does not exist? They are frankly ignorant idiots as the evidence is all around in the geology and the landscape and the mammoth bones in the English Channel..
Very true, madf, but palaeontologically speaking, yours is a very short term view, as that was only the most recent ice age. It is almost a certainty that despite our fuel consumption global cooling will occur again and we will have yet another ice age.
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One factor you've all missed - God, whatever happens he'll have the majority say on what the future holds.
Meanwhile back to cars and the OPs concerns. Yes some interesting points raised and I agree cars, especially engines, have become complex and it looks like they may become even more complex. I don't like the situation we are finding these days where a car may have perfectly decent bodywork etc. but an engine repair may be required that costs over £1000 and the car is worth less or a similar amount. For many cars owners it means having to make a decision between an expensive repair or scrapping the car and what a waste of a potentially low mileage car that could be.
Our local garage boss made the point the other day that manufacturers seem only interested in producing cars they can sell but aren't interested in long term maintainability and a willingness to develop and produce low cost component spares for the aftermarket trade.
The push for cleaner air and better fuel economy are the dominant factors. This often results in a car being produced with an arrow like frontage but a cockpit that will not safely accommodate many a person below 5' 5" in height. Their heads almost touching the windscreen when they adjust the seat forward to allow operation of the pedals and then adjust seat height for visibility, thus making them extremely vulnerable to severe or fatal head/neck injuries should a crash occur, the current Fiesta is one such example.
Yes it is time the car manufacturers produced cars that are internally suitable for actual people, rather than a crash test dummy, and externally simpler and cheaper to repair when maintenance arises. In addition whilst they are about it stop fitting silly wide low profile tyres which wreck comfort levels and negatively impact fuel economy and gives us narrower higher profile tyres that improve ride quality, reduce road noise and boost fuel economy.
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People act as though a petrol engine from 1979 was a simple thing. Yes you may have had 'room to work on it' but people of my Dads age used to spend their weekends clearing out the carbs.
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>> people of my Dads age used to spend their weekends clearing out the carbs.
Because they could. Why pay someone an extortionate hourly rate to do something that you can easily do yourself?
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extremely vulnerable to severe or fatal head/neck injuries should a crash occur, the current Fiesta is one such example.
Hmm. Ever been in an Mk 1 Fiesta? Had all the structural rigidity of a wine-soaked cigar. I'm no fanboy of the move towards over-automation and infantisation of the driver, but even I wouldn't argue that modern cars are less safe than their earlier counterparts in the event of a collision.
Arise Sir Hrmpf of Outragedton, Verycrossshire.
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I think your argument is you're more likely to have a crash in a newer car but also more likely to survive it.
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I wouldn't argue that modern cars are less safe than their earlier counterparts in the event of a collision.
Modern cars are indeed much safer. I learned on my father's seatbeltless early Beetle with interesting oversteer and a petrol tank a few inches from my face. Knobs and hard sharp bits were everywhere.
It is a constant source of amazement that despite our inadequate roads full of traffic passing inches from each other at a combined 120mph the death rate is far less than 50yrs ago.
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I agree, in part, about the unsuitability of todays cars for those of less than average height. I'm 5ft 6ins, and with all the cars I've had, I've had to have the seat fully forward in order to acheive a satisfactory driving position. Cars we've had range from superminis through to large family cars and an MPV. I also find it more comfortable to have the drivers seat base set on a high setting, but with the seat back adjusted so I am not too close to the steering wheel. Don't know how shorter drivers achieve a safe driving position.
I also find it annoying that seat bases often don't all adjust properly for height - some just seem to tilt the rear of the base up so you feel as though you have a tendency to slide forward.
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Even small cars now are designed with a sloping windscreen and a huge dashboard. Even the new Fiesta I drove last year has a dashboard big enough to stage a small olympic event on it. The result is even small cars feel like big cars when you're on the motorway which is excellent I think.
I'm 6ft 1 and can get comfortable in almost anything except for a Citroen Xsara which was just impossible and obviously designed by an idiot - or a Frenchman, same thing. My girlfriend is 5ft 4 and manages to drive a VW Passat, can reach the pedals and everything.
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My answer to most of the above who whinge (!:-) about modern cars, the design for repairability etc is buy one without bling wheels and one without coded electronics and electricals.
EG don't buy GM, Ford, BMW, VAG PSA and Renault and Volvo. And Jaguar :RR anything else produced in Western Europe..And definitely not MB..
But I know I'm wasting my breath cos you say one thing and then do another...People who complain about bling tyres have a simple solution...
And if you are small, buy a car designed by nations with small people..
Edited by madf on 08/12/2012 at 09:57
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"And if you are small, buy a car designed by nations with small people.."
Madf - See below
"Subaru are suffering for the same reason, their sensible durable (long-term value) car design ethos creates “high carbon footprint” cars – I expect them to have to knock out crummy eco-boxes like everyone else or face going bust.
"Buy a good 2003 (before the VED went mental) Suburu Legacy Estate - it should last you a couple of decades." I think the Legacy and the later models of all Subaru cars is a witness that the Japanese don't make cars for small people
I was in the market for a new Subaru but, when I saw how big the new models had become and how much 'bling' they had, I decided to keep my '56 reg. Outback. The electronics safety devices are so 'comprehensive' now that it looks as though the driver can't lose it by 'enthusiastic' driving. I'm too scared to drive that way. I've seen so many electronic and computer faults that I'm nervous of replying on them, especially when they can fail such that they take over control.
But, I'm almost sure that I saw in the Subaru sales literature that there is a switch for cutting out the ESC.
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"And if you are small, buy a car designed by nations with small people.."
Madf - See below
"Subaru are suffering for the same reason, their sensible durable (long-term value) car design ethos creates “high carbon footprint” cars – I expect them to have to knock out crummy eco-boxes like everyone else or face going bust.
"Buy a good 2003 (before the VED went mental) Suburu Legacy Estate - it should last you a couple of decades." I think the Legacy and the later models of all Subaru cars is a witness that the Japanese don't make cars for small people
I was in the market for a new Subaru but, when I saw how big the new models had become and how much 'bling' they had, I decided to keep my '56 reg. Outback. The electronics safety devices are so 'comprehensive' now that it looks as though the driver can't lose it by 'enthusiastic' driving. I'm too scared to drive that way. I've seen so many electronic and computer faults that I'm nervous of replying on them, especially when they can fail such that they take over control.
But, I'm almost sure that I saw in the Subaru sales literature that there is a switch for cutting out the ESC.
Maybe that's a Subaru thing - do they sell mainly to European markets?
I find Mazdas to be just about right for my height; everything is in reach!
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Maybe that's a Subaru thing - do they sell mainly to European markets?
I find Mazdas to be just about right for my height; everything is in reach!
SUbaru's main export market in the US. Think lardy big Americans...
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Maybe that's a Subaru thing - do they sell mainly to European markets?
I find Mazdas to be just about right for my height; everything is in reach!
Most Japan-built Subarus are intended for the Japanese domestic market - they sell some exports to UK and Australia which are also RHD - sales of LHD in Europe are lower.
They build Subarus in the US, for the North American market especially the "snow-belt" and may actually build more there than in Japan.
ESC can be a hindrance in snow, as can ABS, so it's seen as a good safety feature there if they can be turned off.
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" I expect them to have to knock out crummy eco-boxes like everyone else or face going bust. "
Subaru have quite a history of making small cars - including cars in the K-car class (360 cc) and micro vans.
The Subaru small car they exported to Europe was the original Justy - which they made from 1984 to 1994. A 1.0 or 1.2 litre selectable front/four wheel drive supermini.
However, subsequent generation Justys were re-badged versions of other manufacturer's small cars: 2nd gen based on the Suzuki Swift,; the 3rd gen based on the Suzuki Ignis; and the 4th gen based on the Daihatsu Sirion.
They also exported their microvans (approx Bedford Rascal sized) to Europe as well - the last model was sold in the UK up to 1998.
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>> And if you are small, buy a car designed by nations with small people..
If only it was that easy. Take for example the previous version of the Hyundai i30 and the i20. Both have a steering column structure that impinges on both legs of anyone with shorter than average leg length. Even their sales personnel point out the issue, they don't want to sell a car to an unsatisfied customer.
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Even the new Fiesta I drove last year has a dashboard big enough to stage a small olympic event on it. The result is even small cars feel like big cars when you're on the motorway which is excellent I think.
Alec Issigonis would be spinning in his grave at that. I tend to agree with his philosophy that cars should maximise the use of the interior space for people, not acreages of plastic. Ford have always been particularly poor at this. I remember that the Sierra had so much by way of wraparound dash, door furniture and centre console that it was positively claustrophobia-inducing to drive.
Cars only feel big to me if they're full of fresh air instead of upholstered plastic lumps.
I must be in a minority though. Even the Toyota Prius, which bore a passing resemblance to the Tardis in its MkII incarnation, has taken a retrograde step by enlarging the dash, moving it closer to the driver and adding a monumental console to occupy all the space in the middle. Insult upon injury with the latter is the huge "gear lever" on it, performing the task adequately managed by a small knob on the dash in previous versions.
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I toally agree,I had a new Toyota Prius T Spirit for two weeks I was glad to get rid of it apart from it being the most boring car I had ever driven it was just full of grey plastic.
Now I am retired I have bought a basic 3 series even that is complicated and full of poor quality plastics.
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I'm 6ft 1 and can get comfortable in almost anything except for a Citroen Xsara which was just impossible and obviously designed by an idiot - or a Frenchman, same thing.
Ah yes, the Xsara. Just be thankful you never tried to put kids in the back on booster cushions or in belt-secured kiddie seats. The deeply sculpted rear seat, coupled with ludicrously mounted belt sockets makes this nigh-on impossible.
Also I used to suffer from carsickness as a child. I sometimes still do as a passenger, if the driver's the sort who alternately mashes the throttle and brake and I can't see where I'm going. The Xsara uniquely managed to make me feel distinctly unwell while I was driving. The only other thing I've ever been in with a ride that dreadful was an SRN4 hovercraft in the channel during a strong gale with heavy seas. I was sick as a dog in that too.
It was, without doubt, the worst vehicle it has ever been my displeasure to have foisted on me. God alone knows how they sold them.
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