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Wed 28 Dec 2011 10:29

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - bananastand

Yeah, me again. Lord give me patience.

As the alert reader may remember, I bought a Jeep Grand Cherokee from a well-known national chain in late August. I later found the driver's door was sagging and the seal was ripped. The dealer, after a bit of a huff, ("lost" emails and so on) fixed both without charge. Tribute must be paid to HJ who personally reassured me that I was 100% within my rights.

Over Christmas I see the built-in satnav has started to flicker between bright and very dark. The fault is somehow linked to the stalk on the steering column which controls light settings for the fascia and map reading lights etc. Also there is a weird noise in the steering column itself which sounds a bit like one of those things you put on a bike frame to click against the spokes of your wheel.. Kind of. AND the driver's door still isn't right.

I've had it looked at by Woodlands Garage of St Helens which is the best garage in Great Britain, and they assure me all fluid levels are correct and so on so my maintenance is fine.

The service department of the dealer is huffing and puffing about the warranty only being three months. Everyone of you will know that it is not. It is six months. Strictly speaking it isn't a "warranty" but the dealer is responsible for faults up to six months. I am going to FAQs on here and will copy and paste the relevant bits to the service manager who obviously thinks he's the king of the fobber-offers.

By the way, do you remember a letter to the Telegraph about a month ago telling people to park their cars on chicken wire because mice hate walking on it? I wrote it and I nicked the idea off HJ. Soz. Ha ha.

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Wed 28 Dec 2011 11:07

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - bananastand

I'm sure you're dying to hear the latest. Trading Standards were amazingly helpful and directed me to a template letter on the direct.gov site. They say the dealer gives you a 3 month warranty to divert your attention away from the admittedly onerous responsibilities it has for up to six years.

But they also said that phone calls to service managers are essentially pointless, you need to get your recorded delivery letter in. Move out of my way, I need to get to the post office!

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Wed 28 Dec 2011 11:55

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - jacks

The SOGA isn't a warranty.

It just states that a fault ( that occurs within 6 months of purchase) is assumed to be present at the time of purchase - and the onus is on the dealer to prove otherwise.

In this case the satnav has been working for 4 months and has only now started to flicker.

I would have thought the dealer could show quite easily that the SN was working on purchase, and has been working for the last 4 months - and therefore show that the fault was not present when the vehicle was purchased , which it clearly wasn't.

My sympathy lies with the dealer in this instance

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Wed 28 Dec 2011 12:03

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - bananastand

You have a point J. However Trading Standards, having the same information as you, have said that the dealer would have to prove that the fault wasn't present. In other words, it could have been present but not manifesting itself. The satnav worked for 4 months and began to flicker, true. But where is the cut off point? If it worked for 4 weeks, 4 days, 4 minutes? It's a bit confusing but TS assure me that the dealer's talk of a three month warranty and professed ignorance of the SOGA's provisions are a smokescreen.

I know the SOGA isn't a warranty but still the dealer's responsibilities are clear up to 6 months. The FAQs on here leave no room for doubt.

And that's the way it is and I'm not going to drive round in a faulty motor while it's the supplier's legal duty to fix it. I'm sure he's got more dough than me anyway.

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Wed 28 Dec 2011 12:49

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - thunderbird

Problem with Trading Standards in my experience is the widely varying "advice" they offer and its all without warranty of course. Some people appear really clued up, other's havn't a clue.

IMHO if a Sat Nav has worked fine for 4 months you are going to struggle to prove it was faulty when you bought it, its been working OK hasn't it, if it hadn't you would have returned it before. If you have a 6 month warranty the dealer should sort it but getting it sorted under the SOGA is a total waste of time.

You have summed it up in the last sentance, the dealer has "more dough than me", can you afford a court action againsy such a person.

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Wed 28 Dec 2011 13:13

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - RT

IMHO if a Sat Nav has worked fine for 4 months you are going to struggle to prove it was faulty when you bought it, its been working OK hasn't it,

The point of SoGA is that for the first 6 months it's for the dealer to PROVE it was working without fault when delivered - the OP doesn't have to PROVE anything.

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Wed 28 Dec 2011 12:52

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - unthrottled

I'm sure he's got more dough than me anyway.

His relative financial situation has no bearing on liability. The vehicle itself is not faulty-a non essential accessory has developed a fault 4 months after purchase. This is important because you bought a car, not a sat nav.

How old is the car and how much did you pay for it (as a proportion of original retail price)? This has an important bearing on the interpretation of the SOGA.

From adviceguide.org.uk

"...A secondhand vehicle must match its description, be fit for its purpose, and be of satisfactory quality. However, the standard for meeting the requirement that the vehicle is of satisfactory quality will be lower because it is secondhand. A secondhand vehicle should be in reasonable condition and work properly. When deciding whether a secondhand vehicle is in reasonable condition it is important to consider the vehicle’s age and make, the past history of the vehicle and how much you paid for it...."

Full of weasel words, isn't it?

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Wed 28 Dec 2011 12:59

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - bananastand

Ah now my remark on the dealer's bank balance was an attempt at HUMOUR. In other words it was a JOKE. Some of you seem to be rather LITERAL-MINDED. Anyway.

The satnav is flashing at me whether I turn it on or off. It's hugely distracting when driving. The complex series of light settings on the steering column stalk are not responding as they should and instinct tells me the two events are related. And there's the damned funny rattle coming from inside the column, as if there's a bearing rattling round or something.

I take your point about the variable quality of TS but the chap I got seemed to be very competent. I have had some people in that department without a clue.

Can't remember the exact price but it was about £9300.

Thanking you.

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Wed 28 Dec 2011 13:22

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - bananastand

RT has it right. The onus is not on me to prove anything.

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Wed 28 Dec 2011 14:54

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - jacks

RT has it right. The onus is not on me to prove anything.

Indeed - the onus is with the dealer as I said in my reply to you.

However my belief is that the dealer will be able to show to a court (If it came to it) that the item was working at sale - he's probably got a record of a 100 point inspection sheet or similar signed off by a competant trained staff member - and the fact that it's worked perfectly for 4 months (undisputed) together with the type of item (ie) an electronic unit that isn't going to wear out gradually...........

In my opinion a reasonable legal mind will conclude that the dealer has shown that the fault was NOT present at purchase.

In fact you know yourself the fault was not present at purchase (or you would have returned it before) - and that is the whole point of the SOGA..

It's entirely different to - say - a gearbox bearing that fails after 4 months when one could reasonably asert that it had been "going" for some time .

The SOGA act is designed to root out unscrupulous traders who sell a car with known or disguised faults and in your case you know that the fault was not present at purchase and you are trying it on with the dealer which in my opinion is as bad as as when dealers try to get out of fixing genuine pre existing faults

Honesty cuts both ways

In the end I would guess that the dealer WILL fix it just to placate you as he won't want you going on internet sites and posting negative comments about him etc - he'll look at the big picture.

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Wed 28 Dec 2011 18:08

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - bonzo dog

Pretty much all of the above comments are correct to some degree or other.

Yes the dealer is responsiblefor SOME faults that deveop (within 6 YEARS, to be accurate).
Yes SOGA relates to faults present at time of purchase
Yes if the fault develops within 6 months then it is presumed the fault was present at time of purchase
Yes, unless the dealer can "prove" it was not
& yes the price, age & mileage will be taken into account.

However I suggest the OP also goes down the line that the goods have to be "durable" & IMO (for what's worth) a Sat Nav system that develops a fault within 4 months is not durable

Good luck

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Wed 28 Dec 2011 18:12

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - oldroverboy

Honesty cuts both ways................

Please, everyone don't laugh when I remind them to buy a vehicle under manufacturers warranty to avoid the above problems.

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Wed 28 Dec 2011 20:58

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - oldroverboy

I assume that given the price of the car it is about 5-6 years old, and therefore some of the problems will have occurred on a jeep forum website. These are known for iffy build quality, and a switch pack has every right to give up working at six-ish years old. and the satnav is probably well outdated by now too!

Has anyone bothered to look at the steering colum stalk connections! If you can get a stalk pack from a scrappy or order one from the main dealer, advise them that if they fit tit and it cures the orioblem you'll ask them to pay for it. if the satnav is irittatimg you that much switch it off. most built in ones are poor anyway!

But my first impression is that this vehicle has had a side/front inpact and the airbag has gone off, and the raplacement was perhaps not too well fitted, Door hanging? seal ripped check to see if any slihjtly different paint under the door seal and even under the sill, even on a jeep should not fall off just yet. If you are liable to getting at the steering column bits, make sur the battery is disconnected and follow procedures so you don't get a facefull of exploding airbag!

Edited by OldRoverboy on 28/12/2011 at 21:08

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Wed 28 Dec 2011 21:20

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - oldroverboy

IF THE ORIGINAL POSTER GOES TO THE JEEP F0RUM AND SEARCHES HE WILL FIND PROBLEMS WITH THE SWITCH PACKS AND SWITCHING ON THE SAT-NAV.

sorry i don't know how to get the link here, but the op could also have added his vehicle age and type, but a simple search brings up the information and as there is a known problem he can kindy let the dealer know.

Edited by OldRoverboy on 28/12/2011 at 21:25

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Wed 28 Dec 2011 22:14

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - jamie745

Fortunately the SOGA is there to protect the public from the Arthur Daleys of this land, not to act as a mechanism to get your money back after 6 months and in turn have a free car for 6 months and nor is it there as an insurance policy against buyer remorse. The fact the customer himself says its worked fine for 4 months should be proof enough that it was working when sold. A sat nav is an electronic, its either working or it isn't. Its not like mechanical faults which can take months to show symptoms, if the fault was present when sold then the real question is why did the op buy it.

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Wed 28 Dec 2011 23:23

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - Carole4X4

I know I'm not an auto electrician or a mechanic BUT from reading the OP original and subsequent comments it would appear that the faulty lighting on the satnav could simply be a symptom of the problem and not the actual problem.
The OP actually says at some point that the whole lighting control on the stalk is malfunctioning and making weird noises, maybe and only maybe the satnav fault is a symptom and that if the problem lies with the main lighting controls then further lighting SYMPTONS will manifest themselves in the coming days/weeks in which case the 6 months SOGA would be less likely to be applied. Electrical gremlins can show at anytime even when the fault was present without any obvious signs.

I don't advocate the use of SOGA as a replacement for a warranty or to be used against respectable dealers who do their best but in this case I would expect the dealer to at least carry out an investigation as to whether there is a bigger fault than simply a satnav light.

It may help if the OP can tell us if it's only the satnav light that's at fault and if the other functions of the unit are working properly and describe the other faults he says are occurring with the control stalk.

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Thu 29 Dec 2011 13:36

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - bananastand

Thank you most kindly.

The Jeep is 06 and cost about £9200-ish. The dealer isn't a jeep franchise but is a national name.

The stalk seems to have many settings to adjust fascia lights, map-reading lights, courtesy, etc, and the satnav. I don't know what they all are by heart but I do know it isn't working as it should. Satnav flashes bright/dim whether it's on or off (it shouws the time when it's off) and the speedo dials etc kind of murmur or shimmer if you will. When I turn the steering wheel, when I come to a stop, there is a kind of rattle in the column, it sounds to the untutored ear as if a ball bearing has got loose and is whizzing around like a little spherical maverick.

The dealer gave me a most fulsome assurance that if the car had been in a smash it wouldn't have been on their forecourt. It's black and I haven't noticed any colour differences. I don't want a refund, I just want them to fix these things.

I'm not an expert but going off HJ's column and personal correspondence with him in the past I don't think there's any question, this should comfortably be covered under SOGA.

It was one previous owner, d'you reckon I should have a word with him to see if it was bumped? Hmmm.

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Thu 29 Dec 2011 14:50

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - SlidingPillar

Could be something else entirely but from what has been said here, a failure of the stalk switch must be a strong contender for the cause of all the illumination woes. And quite possibly, a bit having dropped off the now broken switch is now causing the rattle.

Fault not pre-existing, so that bit of the SOGA does not apply. Durability, I'd not be surprised at a switch breaking on one of these of this age (electro-mechanical design is not a known strong point of Jeep design) so you may not win in court.

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Thu 29 Dec 2011 17:59

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - jacks

The Jeep is 06 and cost about £9200-ish. The dealer isn't a jeep franchise but is a national name.

9 grand for a 5 year old yank off a car supermarket forecourt

wow!

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Fri 30 Dec 2011 19:00

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - bananastand

Yes I knew an armchair expert would pop up to shout "you didn't wanna do that!"

Have a look on autotrader for new shape Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD 06 on 50k miles.

And bear in mind it was August.

Should have taken you with me Jacks to tell me what not to do.

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Tue 10 Jan 2012 11:19

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - bananastand

Latest news. Sent recorded delivery letter to dealer principal on 28th December detailing faults. In the meantime pointed faults out to my friends at the best garage in the UK, Woodlands in St Helens. Sharp intake of breath and "could be expensive." Call to dealer today and SURPRISE SURPRISE "we haven't received your letter and I open all the post." "It was sent recorded delivery." "Oh."

Emailed a copy with the receipt. I'll wait a few days while they ignore me some more then I'll, er, do something else.

I will do such things --
What they are, yet I know not: but they shall be
The terrors of the earth!

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Tue 10 Jan 2012 12:09

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - madf

I no reply write to Jeep Head Office's MD in UK.. and detail it all out and your letter.

If no result, try Trading Standards.

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Tue 10 Jan 2012 12:18

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - bananastand

Cheers Mad, though I think Jeep won't be bothered as it's an 06 and it's not a Jeep franchise.

However I have checked my position with Trading Standards and they say I am 100% on solid ground and they confirm what it says in HJ's FAQs.

I've emailed a copy of the letter that they "didn't receive" and the receipt from the Post Office and I'm waiting for a response. Which won't come, obviously.

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Sun 15 Jan 2012 16:26

Jeep Grand Cherokee - attempted dealer fob-off - bananastand

Had a call from the Dealer principal early on Thursday morning. Said he was liaising with Service manager and he would call back later in the day. It's now Sunday evening (15/1/12) and I am still waiting...

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