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Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) - Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) Possible purchase - 12345oncei

I am still looking for a car!

I've just seen a Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) advertised at an independent dealer. They have it on for £3850 which includes a min. £1000 px. I have nothing to PX so it looks rather expensive @ £4850.

It's a 5 door 2004 / 04 model with 14" Alloys, 54k miles. Apparently has part VW and rest independent history (no receipts - just stamped book).

I know it is a case of 'you pays your money, you takes your pick' and I know I need to see it and drive it etc but any opinions on a target price for this assuming it is in a good state? Also are there any glaring issues with these that I should be wary of?

I hear oil changes in these are expensive, not sure when the cambelt will need doing.

Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) - Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) Possible purchase - 659FBE

A three cylinder engine lacks basic balance - the crankshaft will wobble when rotated because the off-axis masses are not in the same plane or symmetrically balanced around the axis of rotation (as in a 6 cyl engine).

The "fix" is a contra-rotating weighted balance shaft. Unfortunately, in my experience, VAG don't engineer it properly and use a chain to drive this shaft, together with the oil pump.

The problem with driving a balance shaft with a chain is that the torsional oscillations set up by this out of balance system quickly damage the chain tensioner system and ultimately, the chain itself. Failures are beginning to occur with this engine, which manifest themselves as a loss of oil pressure when the chain lets go. The engine is then wrecked. On examination, the oil pump is fine and the chain drive is in pieces.

It takes a little longer for the 3 cyl diesel to wreck its balancer chain than the 4 cyl engines did - because the Lanchester shafts fitted to a 4, rotate at twice crank speed - so generating 4x the out of balance forces. F = mr (omega) squared, where F is the out of balance force, m the effective mass, r the radius and omega the angular velocity.

Think washing machine - unbalanced load - delicate drive. Not a bright idea...

VAG were forced to modify their 4 cyl engines to a geared drive system after a fiasco with the chains - but the 3 retains a chain drive to the best of my knowledge.

In engineering, never try to buck the Laws of Physics - otherwise the design will bite you.

VAG have, in my experience an extremely poor record when it comes to correcting serious design faults or compensating customers who suffer the results of them. The 3 cyl chain drive usually lets go at about 100k miles - so well out of guarantee. They therefore won't change or fix it.

Avoid. If you want a diesel Polo, get the 1.9.

659.

Edited by 659FBE on 25/05/2011 at 15:33

Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) - Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) Possible purchase - 12345oncei

Thank you for the thorough reply.

I previously had an old skool 1.9 diesel, all the horror stories with the CR diesels is making me giddy.

Are there any well regarded small modern(ish) diesel engines? I don't really want to spend more than £4k, but I want something that will last at least 4 years of 12k ish miles p/y.

Perhaps I should go petrol or put the baby in a panier on the bike ;) I did see an 03 Honda Jazz with 78k on it, but not all my hair is gone yet.

Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) - Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) Possible purchase - 659FBE

Find a 1.9 PD Polo with Bosch injectors and all will be well. The larger engine can be almost as economical as the 1.4 if you resist the urge to use its full output.

659.

Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) - Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) Possible purchase - 12345oncei

How does one tell if it got Bosch Injectors? Esp. if one is mechanically retarded.

;)

Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) - Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) Possible purchase - madf

I don't own a 1.4TDI Polo but looked at buying an Audi A2 powered by the same engine. Properly maintained they will easily do 100k + miles..

BUT they must have cambekt changed regularly - 60K miles? And they MUST run properly. Any hint of no servicing or misfires - run away cos they are not as tough as the Toyota 1,4TDI engine when it comes to abuse...

Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) - Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) Possible purchase - 12345oncei
I have been amazed at just how many franchised and independent dealers I have encountered over the last month that are flogging cars with no or, next to no service history. People must be buying them. These are not cheap cars either.

Shocking really. I have walked away from countless cars for that very reason.

Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) - Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) Possible purchase - unthrottled

It takes a little longer for the 3 cyl diesel to wreck its balancer chain than the 4 cyl engines did - because the Lanchester shafts fitted to a 4, rotate at twice crank speed - so generating 4x the out of balance forces. F = mr (omega) squared, where F is the out of balance force, m the effective mass, r the radius and omega the angular velocity.

I wouldn't entirely agree with that. The 4 cylinder only has a 2nd order imbalance-the 3 pot has a 1st order imbalance-so the magnitude of the imbalance with the 3 pot is greater in spite of the lower angular speed of the balance shaft.

The more fundamental problem is the infrequency of the firing pulses which causes larger fluctuations in crankshaft torque. The 3 pot is noticeably rougher than a 4 pot. Whether that is a problem to the driver is, of course, subjective.

In my opinion diesels smaller than 1600cc really don't offer many advantages. The GM/Fiat 1.3CDTi, for example, has cylinders that are too small and really isn't very efficient.

Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) - Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) Possible purchase - 659FBE

It's difficult to give a full analysis in a short posting.

You are of course right about the relative magnitudes of the imbalances - the 4 cyl engine has a second order imbalance of 4f2 wheras the 3 cyl has a primary free moment of sqrt3.F1.a, where "a" is the bore spacing. Nasty - explains why there are few 3 cyl engines made.

This is not the whole story though - with a chain drive, generating the free forces 4f2 for the Lanchester shafts involves the use of half sized sprockets. An analysis of the chain forces and wrap angles under these conditions suggests that the design is unworkable - as VAG found.

I am not aware of any other maker which uses simplex chains to drive engine balancing weights in engines of this size and in my opinion, this design places unreasonable stresses on the drive. The integrity of this is fundamental to the servicability of the engine.

Small diesel engines will always suffer from a less than ideal surface area to volume ratio of their combustion space, but in its day, the 1.5 litre PSA TUD5 engine (IDI) was an extremely worthy and long-lived prime mover with a very reasonable SFC.

659.

Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) - Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) Possible purchase - unthrottled

3 pots are horrid-saw a 3V53 detroit screaming away once; it shook like a jackhammar-and that was a 2 stroke.

Out of interest, any idea what the best BSFC for the little TUD5 engine was? I figured it would be pretty unspectatular ~250g/kWhr or so and the economy was due to the fact that the engine was fitted to tin boxes like the AX that simply didn't need much power to potter along. A ~350cc cylinder allied with ~20:1 CR (and a prechamber with throat) doesn't bode well for heat losses-especially at low speed.

I take your point about the wrap angle around a tiny sprocket-I didn't consider that. That's why I put a 1600cc lower limit on the size of a diesel engine. Downsizing either by lopping a cylinder off or reducing the bore just isn't appealing in terms of refinement or efficiency. A 1200cc 4 cylinder turbo petrol would probably perform the duty much more effectively.

Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) - Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) Possible purchase - Avant

I may have missed something but I'm not sure why you need a diesel: they tend to be more expensive to buy than petrols and newer ones have too many bits that go wrong expensively.

If you do need a diesel (i.e. you do more than 15,000 miles a year), as others have said the best engine is the VW Group 1.9 TDI: go for a Skoda Fabia or a SEAT Ibiza or Leon and you'll probably get a newer car for the same price as a VW.

Otherwise go for a four-cylinder petrol engine: the Polo and Golf are good cars but the same applies - a Skoda or SEAT with the same mechanicals will cost you less.

Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) - Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) Possible purchase - Sofa Spud

QUOTE:...""A three cylinder engine lacks basic balance - the crankshaft will wobble when rotated because the off-axis masses are not in the same plane or symmetrically balanced around the axis of rotation (as in a 6 cyl engine).""

This would presumably be true for 5 cylinder engines too - plus they always sound like a misfiring six!.


Edited by Sofa Spud on 26/05/2011 at 12:22

Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) - Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) Possible purchase - 659FBE

Perfectly true - but not as bad.

Common sense tells you this, in that although a 5 cylinder crank has no plane of symmetry and consequently lacks primary balance, the more cylinders you add the better it becomes. (If the crank had an infinite number of throws, it would be as perfectly balanced as a solid piece).

The maths bears this out - 3 cyl free moments = 1.73 Fa; 5 cyl = 0.449 Fa (see earlier post for definitions). The 5 cyl engine also has a very nasty second order imbalance which can't be corrected with a balance shaft.

At risk of drifting off the topic, 5 cylinder engines are really a packaging "fix" - you can generally squeeze one into a car designed for a four and machine the block and head on the same transfer lines - so it's a cheap fix.

Volvo found out that if you fit a 5 sideways, there's no room left for the front wheels to swivel - their 5 cyl FWD cars have a steering lock like a tanker.

Design is a compromise...

659.

Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) - Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) Possible purchase - unthrottled

Whilst mathematically correct, I think that the effect of engine balance is often overstated. At lower engine speeds, it is not really relevant. Crankshaft torque fluctuations are the biggest source of NVH and that is largely independant of cylinder configuration ie a V6 will appear smoother than a flat 4 even though the former is not perfectly balanced and the latter is.

Edited by unthrottled on 26/05/2011 at 14:38

Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) - Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) Possible purchase - 12345oncei

I would love to say that all makes perfect sense to me, but I'd be telling an untruth. Having said that, I think it has helped to a degree!

We are kind of on the cusp of needing a diesel but, maybe the risk of expensive repairs that would be part of the lottery purchasing a small CRD would outweigh the benefit of tax and fuel savings.

I've worked out that potentially we could be doing as much as 18k in a year, though this could be reduced by a few thousand.

With regards to the 1.9 PD TDi engine, I take it the recommendation for the Bosch injectors is because of the possibility of failing Siemens Piezo ones? (which you don't want happening in the fast lane on the motorway).

Thanks again guys.

Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) - Volkswagon Polo 1.4 TDi (twist) Possible purchase - Buster Cambelt

FIL has a 54 plate Twist petrol. That is also, I believe, a three cylinder engine. My limited experience is that it's pretty refined and goes well. It seems to do 45 to 50 mpg too so I do wonder about whether what diesel is going to do better.

Super little car though, seems really well built.