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Thu 5 May 2011 20:21

any - running out of fuel in a tdci vcdi cdti car - oldroverboy

Just having a discussion with some friends and got a service manager from a national chain involved, and in line with my thinking quote "damage to fuel pumps caused by mis-fuelling AND running the pump dry IS NOT covered under warranty." unquote........................ I think that Ford put it in the handbook on new cars, but does anyone else have experience of this. Had an aquaintance attempt to get home on an empty tank and when fuelled put in 68litres diesel into a 65 litre tank. was he lucky or what! also know of a case where man bought new fiesta tdci, wife drove it for 5 days, ran out of fuel £1500 bill to fix. (new high pressure pump) reply to customer "it is in the handbook sir"

I know the dealer involved and believe their version of events.

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Thu 5 May 2011 20:56

any - running out of fuel in a tdci vcdi cdti car - outlier

What ever happened to those rubber bulbs used to prime diesels..?

I guess the problem is mis-match in expectations. Many people think they should just be able to drive a car without ever checking anything or adding any fluids, probably not even fuel. Other people think they should be able to use their vehicles for short journeys without any ill effects. And some even think vehicles should be robust enough to withstand filling with the wrong fuel.

Whether you think these are unreasonable expectations is not entirely relevant, that is what paying customers want.

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Thu 5 May 2011 22:52

any - running out of fuel in a tdci vcdi cdti car - jamie745

Major advances have been made in car reliability to the point somebody who wouldnt even know where an engine is can own a car, which is great (i actually had a girlfriend who got a puncture once and described it as 'only flat at the bottom') My parents will always tell me that back in the 70s if your car started of a morning you were one of the lucky ones, nowadays we EXPECT cars to work. And need them to also as manufacturers are building cars which are purposely made difficult for the DIYer to do anything on. On the old Cortina's you could virtually stand in the engine bay and bash it with a hammer and make it work. Most big zetec lumps now allow you to get to the bits they want you to get to, and for anything else you need a specialist. Also this is good, as it stops unqualified monkeys from wrecking the car, terrific for the second hand market.

But despite all that, cars are still not indestructible and do need a bit of common sense and attention to keep them going. Most people now get a new car every 3 years, on lease, dont give a toss about what happens with it, gets rid of it and sets about breaking their next lovely motor.

Edited by jamie745 on 05/05/2011 at 22:53

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Thu 5 May 2011 23:37

any - running out of fuel in a tdci vcdi cdti car - oldroverboy

But despite all that, cars are still not indestructible and do need a bit of common sense and attention to keep them going. Most people now get a new car every 3 years, on lease, dont give a toss about what happens with it, gets rid of it and sets about breaking their next lovely motor.

I fully agree, and when i sell my car in about 18 months time, just past 3 years old, someone will get a lovingly tended well serviced car, and any future problems too, even though i could extend my warranty for a mere £650 for 2 extra years, it won't cover the wear items, and most people don't realise what ISN'T covered till they go with a problem... i'll get a new(ish) one, at my expense, probably one of the koreans with a long long warranty and pay for dealer servicng in the warranty period. Difference is i have seen both sides of the motor trade for 45 years now, including 13 years in the trade in switzerland with vag, opel and a fiat dealer who took on the opel franchise when the other franchise closed, and jaguar/rover/landrover with a bit of subaru thrown in on the side, and a short period with ford in between. the motor trade has the same qualities there AS DO the customers.... Both good and Both some bad.... Best parts delivery service in those days was all of them except ford! same day delivery across switzerland if you paid for it!

Edited by OldRoverboy on 05/05/2011 at 23:41

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Fri 6 May 2011 01:58

any - running out of fuel in a tdci vcdi cdti car - brum

I expect if a manufacturer sees fit to put a warning about running out of fuel damaging the engine, then they should see fit to making sure the engine cuts out before the tank runs completely dry. (half a dozen lines of code in the ECU)

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Fri 6 May 2011 10:43

any - running out of fuel in a tdci vcdi cdti car - unthrottled

Half a dozen lines of code in the ECU.

Really? So how does the ECU 'know' that the tank is about to run dry? A simple float device cannot work well because of the almost constant acceleration of the vehicle.

Rather like fuel shut-off during overrun on a petrol engine. I remember 'inventing' such a system when I was 17. What I didn't realise is that successfully implementing such a system is much much harder than adding a couple of lines of code to the ECU.

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Fri 6 May 2011 11:02

any - running out of fuel in a tdci vcdi cdti car - bathtub tom

IIRC the Focus diesel (TDDI) I had more than ten years ago would 'stutter' if the fuel was running low and would cut out before the tank was empty. This was built into the design and said as much in the handbook. It was done to prevent running the fuel system dry.

Have such designs been removed?

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Fri 6 May 2011 12:05

any - running out of fuel in a tdci vcdi cdti car - dieseldogg

Not knowing my hydrocarbon technology but should it not be possible to install a sensor to detect the "wrong" fuel and immediately operate a shut off valve or even simpler instruct the engine to shut down, instantly or otherwise ...speed dependant.

With the fabolous level of technology now in use in car engines and ancillaries this would not appear to be out of order.

On the other hand WTF should it be necessary.

Put the blinking right fuel in the car.

Me..maybe I am just paranoid, but I constantly check, even whilst pumping fuel that I have selected the right hose, anyway the diesel pump is generally unmistakable, oily hands, etc.

perhaps due to driving on the Continent as a young man and the unfamilarity with the language labelling

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Fri 6 May 2011 12:50

any - running out of fuel in a tdci vcdi cdti car - unthrottled

"to install a sensor to detect the "wrong" fuel and immediately operate a shut off valve"

No. Making direct measurements is surprisingly difficult. Take the MAF for example. Typically a resistive wire is maintained at a fixed temperature by passing a variable current through it. But a temperature sensor is also required to make an estimate of the mass flow by working out the rate of cooling via forced convection. Actually quite difficult. Oh, and you still need a MAP and throttle position sensor for starting/open loop operation.

You can't just blithely apply black box logic to problems. A fuel injection system has no idea as to the chemistry of the fluid being passed through it. There is no simple way to rectify this.

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Fri 6 May 2011 12:10

any - running out of fuel in a tdci vcdi cdti car - motorprop

It's called the Fuel Guage and the low fuel warning light...

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Fri 6 May 2011 12:47

any - running out of fuel in a tdci vcdi cdti car - justadriver

It's called the Fuel Guage and the low fuel warning light...

THE PERFECT REPLY!

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Fri 6 May 2011 13:01

any - running out of fuel in a tdci vcdi cdti car - Dr Rubber

Except mine comes on when there is 10L of fuel left in the tank! This means I can drive for nearly 100 miles (if I am careful) before it gets close to zero. Clarkson also drove from Oxfordshire to Liverpool with "zero" range on one occasion IIRC.

Citroen HDI engines have a rubber bulb for priming the fuel system if you run out though.

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Fri 6 May 2011 13:07

any - running out of fuel in a tdci vcdi cdti car - jamie745

I remember Clarkson driving a Jaguar XJ from Basel to Blackpool, according to the gauge it would run out in Oxfordshire near his house but instead it took him all the way with plenty to spare despite the computer claiming it was empty.

And this was with Clarkson driving at Clarkson speeds with seatwarmers, aircon etc all on barreling down the outside lane.

Its amazing how much more effeciant a cars engine is on a long trip when its warm and im always fascinated to find out how much is really left in the tank when the gauge/computer claims its empty.

In my old 406 HDi the gauge was at the bottom of the red, light had been on for some time, and i decided i'd break the bank and fill the sodding thing up. 70 litre tank, it took 61 litres of fuel to fill it.

It still had nine litres! Thats two gallons!

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Fri 6 May 2011 14:04

any - running out of fuel in a tdci vcdi cdti car - oldroverboy

Are some of you missing the point about the very obvious consequences of running out of fuel on these engines. Personally, I'll stay cautious and not risk throwing away £1500 or so and 20% more in vat. I wonder how pleased jaguar would have been about a wrecked fuel pump, and the obvious fun Jeremy and co would have made of them....

Above point was made about loss of warranty and financial consequences. (+car hire, or difficulty getting to work or family) far cheaper to make sure enough fuel in tank.

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Fri 6 May 2011 14:17

any - running out of fuel in a tdci vcdi cdti car - justadriver

it took 61 litres of fuel to fill it................It still had nine litres! Thats two gallons!

And if you fill up before u run out of fuel have you lost those 2 gallons?

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Fri 6 May 2011 16:53

any - running out of fuel in a tdci vcdi cdti car - jamie745

No, not at all. I was just surprised that it will telling me i had yards left to go when that clearly was not the case.

I am one of those who tends to wait until i hear the whine at the back of the car before i bother going to the petrol station. Ok maybe not that bad but im certainly not one who goes "ive only got a quarter of a tank, i urgently need petrol!!"

And as for the Jaguar thing, i think by now most car firms know if they give a car to Top Gear in good condition, it aint coming back.

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