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My question to an MP regarding Bio-diesel - Reply! - Med

Hi guys

Last year a few of us wrote of to Syeed Kamill who is an MP and deals with issues with motoring and green gases etc etc.

I wrote to him in Nov 2010, he has put the questions forward to the parliment - this is the question and answer:

Following your email below, I submitted a parliamentary question to the European Commission. I attach the question and the answer below.

4 November 2010
E-9096/2010
WRITTEN QUESTION by Syed Kamall (ECR) to the Commission
Subject: Diesel particulate filter (DPF)

I have been contacted by two constituents regarding an EU legislation issue which is causing concern among owners of diesel cars.

One of my constituents owns a 2008 Volvo diesel-engined car that was the subject of a safety recall by Volvo owing to concerns that rising oil levels in the engine may cause the car to ‘self-fuel’, thus making the car run away without it being possible to turn the engine off.

It appears this problem is not unique to Volvo, since another constituent has had the same problem with his Mazda 6 2.0tdi. My constituents believe that this problem has been caused by the now compulsory 7% biodiesel content of road fuel available at the pump. They also point out that these cars are fitted with a compulsory Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) in the exhaust stream, which requires a regeneration process roughly every 300 miles.

Biodiesel has a lower flash point than conventional diesel fuel, and when extra fuel is injected to produce the temperatures required to regenerate the DPF the ‘bio’ element of the fuel is left behind unburnt in the engine, gradually increasing the engine oil level to the point where the car ‘self-fuels’, i.e. burns its own oil, rather than fuel from the tank.

Apparently, Volvo and other manufacturers have addressed this problem by reducing the recommended oil level in the engine, draining out oil to below the three-quarter mark, and modifying the engine software to change the frequency and duration of regeneration cycles.

My constituents are also concerned that the oil specified for use in these engines is a rather expensive synthetic version that is designed to last for 18 000 miles between changes. They believe that the dilution of this oil by unburnt diesel fuel causes a deterioration in its lubrication qualities, leading to a significant possibility of excessive engine wear and premature failure. They are also concerned because the recall campaign to repair the problem with the DPF has been conducted during the summer months, when regeneration is less problematical.

They tell me that there is a considerable body of opinion to the effect that during winter months the DPF regeneration will not be completed correctly, leaving affected car owners with filters that become full and blocked, requiring a chargeable visit to the dealer to have the problem rectified.

Is the Commission:

1. aware of these problems?

2. proposing to take any steps or to address the problems outlined by my constituents?

3. able to offer any additional advice to my constituents on these issues?

14 December 2010

E-9096/10

Reply

The Commission understands the question as relating to possible technical issues with biodiesel use in cars. The legislation determining the quality of fuel for road transport at EU level is the Fuel Quality Directive[1] (''the Directive'') which has most recently been amended by Directive 2009/30[2]. The Directive establishes limits on certain fuel parameters primarily for health and environmental reasons. It should be noted that the European Committee for Standardization (CEN) also establishes voluntary technical specifications for diesel. The CEN standard for diesel is EN590. Vehicle manufacturers' warranties often state that the fuel used must be compatible with EN590.

Although it is not clear if the question refers to biodiesel in general or FAME (fatty acid methyl ester – the most common type of biodiesel), the Directive prohibits Member States from imposing a minimum level of FAME in diesel without prior approval from the Commission pursuant to Article 114 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. Therefore it would be illegal for a Member State to set a mandatory FAME content.

Further, the Directive contained no maximum limit on FAME content in diesel prior to the latest legislative amendment. The Impact Assessment[3] for the revision explored this issue thoroughly and concluded that there was no need to establish a limit in the Directive since the main reasons for such a limit were technical and therefore best addressed by CEN.

During the co-decision process the co-legislators introduced a maximum limit on FAME of 7% by volume, while allowing Member States, within their territory, to permit the placing on the market of diesel with a higher FAME limit if they choose to do so. No limit was established for other types of biodiesel such as hydro-processed vegetable oil or synthetic diesel since these do not cause vehicle compatibility issues. There was extensive debate on the appropriate level of the limit on FAME and the impact on vehicles during this process and the various industries stated their positions[4]. As a result of the agreed outcome, Member States are required to "ensure the provision of appropriate information to consumers concerning the biofuel, in particular FAME, content of diesel fuel".

Given the provision in the Directive to require the dissemination of proper information on the usage of biodiesel, the Commission is not aware of any reason to amend the limits that have been established. Nevertheless, the Commission is monitoring this situation.

I hope this is helpful.

Regards,

Syed

SYED KAMALL

Conservative MEP for London

www.syedkamall.com

Let me know what you guys think!? as i want to have a very good argument back......

My question to an MP regarding Bio-diesel - Reply! - injection doc
as with most MP's replys, they never seem to answer the question directly. He has given you a page of waffle explaining about fuel complying to EN590 !not about the issue's in hand.

I have actually just had a letter from my Landrover dealer now recommending oil changes every 6 months at the cost of £125.00+vat !!!!!!!!!
so is its a sales patter or is there a real problem with oil dilution causing more long term issues ? so how friendly is that !

Med, to be honest with experince of just writing to an MP recently they are north worth the time of day ! kick up enough fuss and then they promise a full investigation! but to be honest its just a waste of tax payers money as they normally get a side kick to investigate who gets the wrong end of the stick and waste everyones time and so it goes round and round!
My question to an MP regarding Bio-diesel - Reply! - Dave N

I don't think DPF's are compulsory. They must produce cars to the latest EU emission rules, but how they achieve that is up to the manufacturers.

My question to an MP regarding Bio-diesel - Reply! - unthrottled
True. But in the same way as three way catalytic converters are not stipulated, it is impossible to get the engine out emissions low enough to pass the emissions standards without one fitted. Thus, they are effectively mandatory.

DPFs reduce particulate emissions by up to 70%-they really are very good, and I can't sympthise with people who replace them with straight pipes. DPF is part of the price that come with diesel ownership-the boon of diesel is of course the better fuel economy. If drivers are concerned about DPF, they are perfecty free to switch to petrol and suffer the increased consumption. You pays your money, you takes you choice...
My question to an MP regarding Bio-diesel - Reply! - Cymrogwyllt

There is a way around the dpf issue without removing the filter.

I rarely run the car for long enough to get the engine hot but every now and again run it at 2000 to 3000 rpm for a few miles, say 15 min. If the dpf warning lights up do exactly the same 'till the light goes out.

As regards the oil level I do 7k a year so annual services are the rule. No prob.

But why run a diesel for only 7k a year? My previous chariot a 1.2 petrol struggled to achieve 40 mpg on the short runs I do (seldom more than 5 miles) and was very underpowered. The current diesel does 60+ mpg measured brim to brim. and has far more pep. It will happily pull from just above idle revs.

As an addition I bought the diesel as a year old 25k car. By the time I sell it it will be low mileage for the year (It is now) and I'll probably get a decent price for it.

My question to an MP regarding Bio-diesel - Reply! - TheOilBurner

Is it a fact that bio-diesel is directly and solely responsible for the rising oil levels, or is it down to some implementations of the DPF? If it was just the bio-diesel, wouldn't all DPF equipped cars have this problem?

I think it's self-evident that isn't the case, so that implies it is specific designs of DPF that are at fault, not the presence of bio-diesel itself, assuming even that is causing the problem at all with these cars.

As an aside, does anyone know if it is the Volvo 4 pot diesels (borrowed from Ford) or their in-house 5 pots that have this issue? If it is their 4 pots, then surely Ford would have this issue too? I doubt Volvo use different DPFs to Ford on otherwise identical powertrains on cars built on a shared platform.

I can say for sure that I know of at least 1 recent DPF equipped Mondeo that has reached nearly 80k miles in 3 years without any DPF issues, or problems with rising oil levels...

My question to an MP regarding Bio-diesel - Reply! - Med

Oilburner, not sure if this could help your question on the volvo: http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=95323

My belief on why some people have issues & some dont, is the manufacturers technology and implementation of the DPF system its self. For example, my issue is with Mazda - from 2005 to 2009 they have had lots and lots of people complaining about oil levels rising and most of them causing a run-away engine and a blown one at that. After 2009 Mazda brought out a new 2.2d engine which if you notice, on 2009 a lot of the diesel engines changed to 2.2d? & in my understanding and research it shows that instead of the raw diesel being injected directly into the engine cylinder injectors the DPF its self has its own injector, thus removing the possibility of having diesel in the sump.

The post below is correct, its the flash point of the bio-diesel which leaves unburnt diesel entering into the sump from the cylinder walls. You will notice many people have DPF issues in winter! the exhause temp cannot reach to its 'optimum' temp which means it cannot be regenerated.

It was my question & a few volvo owners who put this complaint through to the MP, your correct i think he has wrote the specifics wrong. I'll correct him on that when writing my reply. Is there anything you lot think i should specifically add or which you may find interesting to know?

Do you think the pumps should be labelled? and consumers be made well aware of the differences & that they should really put V-POWER in the engine? along those lines.

My question to an MP regarding Bio-diesel - Reply! - TheOilBurner
Ok, so if it's down to manufacturer implementation and not the presence of bio-diesel par se, then it would seem to me that we need to blame the manufacturers for poor DPF designs, not the EU for mandating a bio-diesel mix.

Interesting that it's the Volvo 5 pots with the problems, and not the Ford-PSA sourced engines, this explains why Ford don't seem to be having big problems, or so it seems.
My question to an MP regarding Bio-diesel - Reply! - unthrottled
Yes, the problem seems to be application specific. I've heard that some engines have a separate exhaust diesel injector. I'd have thought that this would create ignition problems at the low temperatures involved, unless the exhaust gas temperature was sufficiently high that additional fuel injection was redundant.

Peugeot use Eolys as a catalyst which reduces the light off temperature of the soot burn off from 600C to about 450C. This greatly mitigates the DPF regeneration problem. Some drivers complain about the cost of the fluid, and the 'complexity' of replacing the fluid. But you have to subtract the cost of the diesel wasted in DPF regeneration.
My question to an MP regarding Bio-diesel - Reply! - TeeCee

>If it is their 4 pots, then surely Ford would have this issue too?

You mean exactly as described on a Ford Kuga by "steady.eddie" in another topic on this very forum?

My question to an MP regarding Bio-diesel - Reply! - FP

The OP's message includes the question submitted by the OP's MP, presumably based on the wording of an e-mail from the OP himself.

While I agree with others who suggest the issue has been hardly addressed at all by the reply, it is unfortunate that the question included this phrase: "Biodiesel has a lower flash point than conventional diesel fuel, and when extra fuel is injected to produce the temperatures required to regenerate the DPF the ‘bio’ element of the fuel is left behind unburnt in the engine".

The whole point of the argument is that biodiesel has a significantly HIGHER flash point than conventional diesel (>130°C as against 64°C). If it were lower, it would start to burn more readily than petroleum diesel when over-fuelling for the purpose of DFP regeneration occurred and would not be left behind in the engine.

Edited by ChrisPeugeot on 31/01/2011 at 12:07

My question to an MP regarding Bio-diesel - Reply! - unthrottled
Remind me again why we are discussing flash point in the context of combustion with no source of ignition other than the temperature of the oxidising species (ie exhaust gas).

Autoignition temp is important, reid vapour pressure is important, molecular weight of the fuel is important. Flashpoint is irrelevant.

There is a temptation to consider 'diesel' as C14H30 and 'petrol' as C8H18 and other species as impurities. In actual fact there is little cetane in diesel, and very little octane in petrol. Diesel is a blend of hydrocarbons with a wide range of molecular weights, flash points, autoignition temperatures, and the combustion is quite satisfactory. The notion that 'first all the diesel burns, then the bio diesel component burns afterwards' is frankly childish. Comprising only 7% by volume, the combustion characteristics of biodiesel are virtually indistinguishable from 100% dino diesel.

The issue of bio fuels lies in questions regarding their compatibility with High Pressure fuelling systems and their very dubious environmental credentials. I do not like bio diesel, but spreading unsubstantiated myths is unhelpful to the cause.
My question to an MP regarding Bio-diesel - Reply! - FP

I feel that I and the other posters in this thread are being given a fairly sharp slap on the wrist. I'm sorry we appear "childish" in your more expert eyes. Actually, my contribution was designed only to highlight an inconsistency in the initial question.

Your main point, then, is that the bio-diesel component of green diesel doesn't behave as a separate substance and there's no way it can contribute to or cause problems with engine oil, or "self-fuelling"? (These being the "unsubstantiated myths" you mention, I assume.) I just want to be clear about what you're saying.

Edited by ChrisPeugeot on 31/01/2011 at 17:10

My question to an MP regarding Bio-diesel - Reply! - unthrottled
ChrisPeugeot-you're right-my tone was condescending and inappropriate-and I apologise. My frustration got the better of me.

Combustion science is very, very hard. I am not an expert but I know enough to know that I don't know much. Inevitably we must make assumptions to make the problem tractable. But if the assumptions are invalid, then we will draw invalid conclusions.

In answer to your question "is there no way that 5% biofuels can contribute to problems with engine oil?" I can't give a definitive answer. The problem appears to be due to the post injection phase causing liquid fuel to impinge on the cylinder liner where it it can't burn. It is quite true that this fuel can them be drawn into the crankcase and dilute the oil. So we ask if the bio diesel component is more susceptible to being deposited on the wall. But we can't answer that unless we know the composition of the biodiesel. Most virgin forms of bio diesel are less volatile than petrodiesel-which is bad. But they tend to have higher cetane ratings-which for post injection is good. Which effect dominates? Don't know, but at 5/7% level, it is almost certainly irrelevant.

I know this sounds like waffle, but I really think this speculation on fuel quality is pointless. There are too many unknowns to draw meaningful conclusions.

The unpalatable fact is that DPF performance is most heavily dependant on duty cycle-which depends on the driver. We've become used to treating diesels like petrol engines-and they aren't.
My question to an MP regarding Bio-diesel - Reply! - injection doc

"I know this sounds like waffle, but I really think this speculation on fuel quality is pointless. There are too many unknowns to draw meaningful conclusions.
The unpalatable fact is that DPF performance is most heavily dependant on duty cycle-which depends on the driver. We've become used to treating diesels like petrol engines-and they aren't. "

I agree totally, the 5% bio does not flood the sump, manufactures may want to bluff you with the fact that they will blame "bio" its their warranty get out clause card !

The fact is that the design of some of the systems is poor, and does not allow for every type of driving condition. If a sensor does not function as it should or the cycle doesn't complete this causes excess oil dilution due to excessive unburnt diesel flooding the oil!

My question to an MP regarding Bio-diesel - Reply! - Sofa Spud

QUOTE:....."""Biodiesel has a lower flash point than conventional diesel fuel, ""

I thought it was the other way round - so I checked, and it is:

Normal diesel: Flashpoint 60 C

Biodiesel : Flashpoint 130 C

Only slightly different figures from those quoted in a previous post making the same point.