When i was in a reaserach lab watching all the various fuels being tested there certainly was a difference.
same tanker , same refinery but different addatives added when delivered.
Its funny how when I was on technical support some dealers had common faults occuring in some areas of the country and in other area's the faults would be unheared of but the fuel related faults tended to appear in clusters!
Perhaps Andy P can expelin why our car runs more sluggish on supermarket fuel and the fuel consumption drops between 3-5 mpg everytime ?
I can garrentee I can fill my wifes car and not say where I have filled it and first trip out as she drives up the road she will look at me and say you filled it up with carp again !!!
My old Peugeot 405 didn't make any difference where that was filled but some of these CR engines seem quite sensative.
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Problems with diesel pumps etc are almost unheard of in Germany where we have no cheap supermarket fuel.When I return to the UK my car drops mpg and performance if I use supermarket fuel I tend to use only Shell if possible and thats ok.It may come out of the same refinery to the same basic recipe but its what added after that counts.
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When i was in a reaserach lab watching....
Now I know why I buy petrol cars, eight or nine atrocious spelling mistakes in how many lines of text? You cannot even spell "research", you're supposed to be an academic? God only knows what the literacy standards are for plumbers these days - Grade inflation? What grade inflation...
I'm not normally an internet spelling/grammar NAZI, but when you are trying to sound as though you're an authority on the issue - getting the very basics right does help.
I might add that I actually agree with you, all fuel is fuel, supermarket fuel is the same stuff as the fuel with the posh badges - the only difference is additive packages. Oil companies buy fuel off each other and off the open market depending on local stocks and price points. Supermarkets buy off big brand oil companies.
I think there are after-market diesel additive products out there already that are supposed to increase the lubrication of the high pressure pump and injectors. I wouldn't put anything in that contains a lubricant that claims to coat a surface to protect it (such as PTFE) as these modern high-pressure pumps run such tight tolerances, barrier-type lubricants may actually destroy the pump rather than help it.
It's the reason vegetable oil (bio fuel) can wreck modern FI pumps, they deposit a layer of gum on everything, closing up gaps of already critically tight working tolerances.
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there is a post on my boating forum about adding 2stroke oil to deisel to aid in lubrisity.
some say they have tried it and it works well on low revving engines but i'd never try it on my boat engines.
my work on the older xud type engines with out turbo's
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Perhaps fully-synthetic two-stroke oil for CR engines - not the mineral stuff that leaves gum in the system.
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I add two stroke to my vintage petrol engine's fuel, but that is because it uses modern pistons and rings in a total loss lubrication system. Design oiling is 1000 miles per gallon.
Diesel I just put in my Landrover and drive...
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"When i was in a reaserach lab watching.... Now I know why I buy petrol cars, eight or nine atrocious spelling mistakes in how many lines of text? You cannot even spell "research", you're supposed to be an academic? God only knows what the literacy standards are for plumbers these days - Grade inflation? What grade inflation"
I think you should read the post correctly and not jump to such insulting conclusions.
He says" when I was in a research lab watching" not "when I worked in a research lab"
Also a spelling mistake is hardly a problem I have problem spelling certain words in both english and german and I am supposedly well educated but I would bow to this mans knowledge on modern engines ,seeing that this is a motoring forum and not an english language forum I do not see the problem..
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I'd just like to add my entirely unscientific findings. I've always been of the view diesel is diesel so I've filled up at Tesco for the points. However since they halved the points earned at the beginning of this month I've switched to shell.
In my Subaru Legacy the smoke has now reduced dramatically Ober the last 3 tanks (legacy diesels are smokers). It also feels smoother and more peppy however I admit that might just be more of me hoping for that so i'm trying to convince myself.
What I can't argue with though is that in 8,000 miles the last two tankfuls are the only tankfuls that have delivered more than 500 miles. It has never done that before, it's came close but never beaten that yardstick. I admit 3 tankfuls isn't long enough to be definitive but it's looking good so far.
Apologies if any spelling mistakes as i'm writing this on my BlackBerry. I don't want to annoy anybody.....
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You can have the best speller in the world but he may know nothing about fuel or technical topics on cars !!!
I am seriously dyslexic which has always made life twice as hard and I have never claimed to be perfect at grammar but my knowledge & skills I like share with others unless its a crime because I struggle to type with dyslexia & rheumatoid Arthritus.
i hope your not taking the micky as I'm sure I have human rights that can put people like you away for discriminating against the likes of us
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Injection doc the world is full of people who find enjoyment in putting others down for no other reason than their own faillings in life.this man has probably never had to get his hands dirty or do a proper days work in his life and is about as much use on a motoring forum as a chocolate firegaurd but he can spell ok so he thinks.
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Andy, I have rewired and replumbed several houses. built my own extension, rebuilt hundreds of engines and gearboxes over the years (often free of charge for friends and family) I know very well how to get my hands dirty. These days I work in IT but still service and repair my own vehicles. I don't try to put people down, the post I pointed out made a good point, which I agree with, but was so poorly constructed its useful contents would be ignored by many people.
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I was diagnosed with dyslexia at school, I'm no master speller or grammarian I just take a little more care and try not to be lazy! Add a spellchecker to your browser if you must. You are obviously very bright and able, computers are here to help you with the rest. You are doing yourself an injustice by being as sloppy as the post I highlighted. I'm not prejudiced, but it is out there, but you do not help your cause if you do not use technology to its fullest.
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You are the only person on this forum who appears to be bothered about a spelling mistake everybody else seems to be able to understand the posts and not be bothered if they are not grammatically correct if they were half the posts on this forum would be deemed incorrect.I think if you re read what you put it is quite insulting no matter what you do now to squirm out of it.
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Andy, I have read many of Injection Doc's posts and have found them to be very informative and interesting - the man clearly knows his stuff, yes they contain the odd spelling mistake which doesn't bother me at all - and as I originally pointed out I'm no spelling NAZI (people in glass houses etc.) but that particular post was far below his usual standards in terms of spelling etc. If you are going to talk about research as part of your post which implies an academic background or point of authority, then I pointed out that you should take more care with the content to be taken seriously - that's all - This has been blown out of all proportion. I look forward to reading many more of Injection Doc's useful and insightful posts.
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Is it possible to get back on the subject?
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Is it possible to get back on the subject?
Indeed, I thought the possibility of using two stroke oil as an additive interesting...
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If you use good diesel in the first place there is no need to add anything,but diesel engines are becoming so complicated they are starting to outway any advantages they may have had in the economy stakes especially when they go wrong outside of their warranty period.When some government decides to tax fuel by mass and not volume then diesel will become thing of the past.
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Aren't all modern engines though? Petrols seem to be going the turbo and/or supercharged route, all have injection systems of varying complexity - and probably DMFs too. Plus, you've got a sparking system. - so, swings & roundabouts really.
A brief comment on the 'grammar' debate above. It's no great shame to make spelling mistakes or have shaky sentence construction skills - but on the other hand it's no great credit either. Take this simple editable post box we use to write comments - if you notice, it has a spell checker - it underlines in red when it sees spelling mistakes and/or typos. So, it's quite easy to check your posts before you submit - my spelling/typing sometimes goes awry & I correct them, out of politeness, courtesy & desire to write intelligibly.
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I agree but petrol engines are much cleaner to start with,here in Germany we do not consider CO2 to be as anywhere as important as the other really toxic exhaust gases hence diesels pay a higher road tax than petrol engines because they polute more.To make diesels anything like as clean as petrol engines everything about them has to be produced to much higher tolerances and thats where the troubles start.But when you see Trabants and Wartburgs running around with a dispensation you wonder whether its all worth it.
On the subject of spell checker there is not one on my message box.
Edited by Andy Bairsto on 16/11/2010 at 19:50
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On the emission note, the old Mazda RX7 was excempt from emmission test due to the HC's being in the 2-3000 mark !!!!!!!!!!!!! but the next car may of failed for the HC's being just 1% over so I couldn't agree more its really ironic.
( I'm sorry about my spelling but haven't worked out this spell check browser thingy yet !)
I'm glad you have noticed that you don't experience the same issues with Diesels but you don't have supermarket fuels because I have harped on about this for years but there is always someone out there that knows better.
well done Andy
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I agree but petrol engines are much cleaner to start with,here in Germany we do not consider CO2 to be as anywhere as important as the other really toxic exhaust gases hence diesels pay a higher road tax than petrol engines because they polute more.
That is imminently sensible, instead of taxing harmless plant food emissions (which is obviously a leftiest wealth tax), tax nasty cancer causing soot, that said, "we" banned lead and replaced it with a particularly nasty carcinogen - Benzine, then shoved a box of heavy metals and toxic waste on the end of the tailpipe. Madness.
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What does intelligibly mean ? I am like Andy can't write English or Dutch my mothers language any more, confusing world.We are brothers in arms Injectorian Docctor.
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What I dont understand injection doc if this supermarket fuel is so inferior why are they allowed to sell the stuff ? I dont use it but thousands of customers do.
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Supermarket fuel used to be rather poor quality, often bought on the spot market or at it's most basic grade from the petrol companies. I can't remember when it was now, maybe the 1990's, but the OEM's had some meetings with the supermarkets, and they were told that the fuels they retailed, would have to be to an agreed standard. If this was not done, the vehicle handbooks were to be printed with recommendations not to use Tesco, Sainsbury etc. So the fuel you buy from any supermarket is good fuel nowadays. BUT! The additive package in Shell, BP, Total, Esso etc is still superior and is the reason why some cars will run better and more economically on mainstream fuel retailers products. A good tip also, is to use the most modern outlet in your area. Modern diesel will strip the zinc from the old galvanised tanks and pipes. This zinc can build up on the very fine injector nozzles and reduce power.Most new installations use stainless pipe. To the OP, I occasionally help lubricity levels with Millers additive.
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Thanks for that advice boggles,its a minefield regarding different fuels.
Using Millers additive ones in a while can't do any harm.
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I have lived in France for the past year and have to say that French diesel is markedly better than UK diesel in the sense that it gives better power and/or economy.(And It's much cheaper and we don't pay road tax and the roads are better-sorry!) There is a slight difference between summer and winter diesel- summer gives better power/economy. On my Civic 2,2 I struggled to get 43mpg in UK, here in France 47-50 mpg is achievable without any special effort on winter diesel.
I also remember that UK supermarket diesel used to send the mpg readout down into the thirties-total rubbish, didn't buy it again.
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I can't open the what car link Andy.
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As far as my experience goes yes they are wrong. The petroleum industry guys will just trot out the same blah blah all fuel is the same blah blah-rubbish, it can't be, Why would I get such a variance in consumption and not just on our current car either. Over the past few years during many trips from the UK to France and back the difference in indicated fuel consumption was so noticeable and consistent that it cannot be a coincidence.
Also, funnily enough, the fuel over here actually smells like diesel used to smell like in the UK-really acrid not like the stuff they sell now in the UK which seems to smell like white spirit.
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2006 2.0 tdci mondeo , 1 cap of 2stroke in the tank per fill up, slight mpg improvement,less smoke on hard acceleration,(hardly smoked before adding to be honest) quieter on tickover, cheaper than well advertised additives
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thanks all for the useful comments - definitely worth bearing in mind. I'll have a look for Miller's!
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Cap of two stroke never heard of that before mark,if it works why not.
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That I do find surprising, after all, these additives aren't designed to improve fuel consumption - they're there to lubricate the interior parts of the fuel system.
Given the level of contradictory information on the subject, I think I'll reserve judgement until an independant test shows that one is worse than the other (or someone has a few grand to spend having samples analysed).
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France is a much larger country with a corresponding smaller density of population. Do you think that could have any bearing on the difference in fuel consumption?
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Something I've just found when investigating the BS EN 590 standard that all diesel must meet. One part of the test involves testing the lubricity of the fuel:
Low Sulfur Diesel and Lubricity Issues:Hydroprocessing removes sulfur/sulphur and significant amounts of polar and aromatic compounds that give conventional diesel fuel adequate lubricating capability. Low lubricity in diesel fuel can cause engine problems unless treated with additives. Measurement of diesel fuel lubricity characteristics is important in order to monitor lubricity additives and final fuel quality.
BS ISO 12156-1:1997:
Diesel Fuel: Assessment of lubricity using the High Frequency Reciprocating Rig (HFRR) Test Method
IP 450/2000:
Diesel Fuel - Assessment of Lubricity Using the High Frequency Reciprocating Rig (HFRR).
ASTM D6079-99:
Standard Test Method for Evaluating Lubricity of Diesel Fuels by the High Frequency Reciprocating Rig (HFRR).
So evidently all diesel sold must meet these tests, which means that all diesel must lubricate as well as the high-sulphur diesel that used to be sold, and since low sulphur diesel has been on sale for over 10 years, the lack of mass failures seems to suggest that diesel, irrespective of the source, is adequate for the job.
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the lack of mass failures seems to suggest that diesel, irrespective of the source, is adequate for the job.
Just about acceptable, adequate, o.k, doesn't do bad, should be alright, meets the industry standard...etc........none of that is good enough for me.
I want my expensive to run modern cars to have the best chance of reliability and longevity...so they get the best stuff.
Buy cheap, buy twice sort of principle.
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I would have thought that adding 2 stroke fuel has the exact opposite effect of lubricating and would act like petrol as a cleaner.When used in 2 stroke engines a lubricant has to added seperately to the fuel such as Bel Ray if its not added the engine ceases up so adding 2 stroke to diesel engines in my opinion will clean the injectors and pump but shorten their life.
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I'm just a simple soul; I follow maker's advice.
No additives of any sort..
I'm glad that those who advocate two stroke oil are testing it for us. I wait to hear the results in 5 year's time when they have done enough testing to be meaningful :-)
Meanwhile I use Shell diesel - with no issues and a reasonably clean EGR valve
Edited by madf on 17/11/2010 at 14:02
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Sound advice ,you can see why it is easy to sell snake oil.
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I run a 2003 Xtrail in France. I am convinced that there are poor batches of diesel being sold at supermarkets. It's not consistently bad at any particular supermarket but when I do get a bad fill then a drop off in performance and smoothness starts after a few miles. I attribute this to a metering valve sticking through lack of lubricant.
I'd like to hear more about any experiences of adding synthetic 2-stroke oil. What harm could a cap full do in a tank?
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Boggles, in the late '80s, the time the supermarkets entered the fuel retailers' market, I worked for a major American oil company, our (UK division's) two biggest fuel buyers were Tesco and Sainsbury's, we provided the bulk of their fuel (over 80% at the time) the fuel was the same stuff as delivered to our branded forecourts. All the major oil companies buy and sell fuel on the spot market if it's cheaper than producing/selling their own at that point. Yes additive packages differ but fuel is fuel (in the UK anyway.)
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What I think may be a problem affecting the lubricity of diesel in the UK is the simple fact that resellers can add up to 5% biofuel to their diesel without disclosing the fact, as 95% diesel is considered to be "standard" diesel fuel these days. What happens when the next guy in the chain adds their 5% biofuel to stretch their margins, then it gets resold to someone else... You get the point - especially if the end product is then blended to produce a labelled 10% biofuel!
I believe people are occasionally unwittingly filling up with, effectively unlabelled biofuel because of the above loophole. The fuel retailers simply do not always know what they are putting in their forecourt tanks.
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Steve - it's worse than that now. The EN has been changed to allow up to 7% FAME.
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Only the "Ultimate" fuels are different - more additives to improve performance/efficiency (or so they claim).
I've run on BP, BP Ultimate and Morrisons, and I've not noticed any difference in how the car drives or the fuel consumption figures I get.
Big difference with my BMW. I run exclusively on BP Ultimate and the car pulls harder, is smoother, starts better. I ran an injector cleaner through the engine when it failed the MOT on emissions, then carried on using BP Ultimate after using normal stuff for the past three years. No problems with emissions now for the last two years, and I only do 6-7000 miles a year with 9 miles to work daily runs where the car has just reached operating temperature at this time of year.
I think it depends on the type of car you run. You will see better results on a more performance orientated engine than a 1.1L city car. Also if you are running your car for big annual mileages you may try to ignore any difference as you resent paying the extra for a better fuel. If you run a car that thrives on the higher octane super fuels you get what you pay for.
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Dunno if your Beemer is Petrol or Diesel Corax, but the vast majority of BMW engines are designed to run on super unleaded, putting 95RON in will see a drop in performance and fuel efficiency, this is why I've written countless letters to the various mags over the years railing against the testing of all cars on (sponsored) expensive superbrew, this favours the few cars (normally German) designed to run on it. On paper this disadvantages cars such as the Mondeo/Insignia etc which would return the same (perhaps better?) results on standard 95 RON. Then the paper-tiger beemers wouldn't suddenly look so powerful or efficient. Ditto for the BMW S1000R superbike which requires super unleaded to match the manufacturer's figures where as most Jap bikes are designed to run non 95RON and do not benefit from high octane fuel at all (statically mapped ignition systems.) Jap bikes are performance oriented but they do not need super unleaded. Most French cars (including little 1.1 litre city cars) have had dynamic ignition maps trimmed by knock sensors and WILL benefit from high octane fuel.
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It's a petrol straight six.
No one seems to have mentioned Millers. I thought this was used to add lubricity to diesel fuel?
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I understand that in Japan higher octane is freely available and used. The 4-wheeled vehicles here will run on 95 RON, but I suspect they will produce more power on something like 99RON. Unless Japanese cars lack knock sensors - which is very unlikely.
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I guess that includes the 335d then....
I'd rather see actual figures rather than anecdotal evidence, but if you think it runs better then that's all that matters.
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What I dont understand why having different grade of fuels be it diesel or petrol.I am all for competition whatever that means but fuel it doesn't make sense.There should be one quality standard and the pricing is up to the BP Shell etc and the supermarket chains.
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