eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft?

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Thu 21 Oct 2010 22:28
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - likerocks

Bit of an unfair question on the surface of it, so I'll elaborate....

Anticipation, observation and "acceleration sense" (i.e. looking ahead and staying off the gas rather than braking at last minute) seem to be common skills required in both driving disciplines. However, it grates on me whenever I watch HJ ecodriving in video roadtests and chugging along with minimal revs in top gear! It reminds me of a private hire diver in a clapped out Carina!

I thought current advanced driver training recommended 3rd gear when driving in built up areas to permit good speed control, throttle response and engine braking? Would any of the advanced or Police drivers on here care to add their thoughts about the latest advice to stick in high gear at all costs for the sake of mpg?

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Thu 21 Oct 2010 22:54
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - Dutchie

Hello,I must admit when driving in build up areas I ususally drive in third or fourth gear not top gear.Iam not a advanced driver so I could be wrong I tend to agree with you.

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Thu 21 Oct 2010 23:02
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - daveyjp
HJs Polo roadtest technique is wrong. High gear/low speed does not equal best fuel economy - if it did automatics would be programmed this way and they aren't.

Try riding an 18 speed cycle in gear 18 at too slow a speed and see how quickly you get tired due to you burning too much energy to keep the wheels turning - a car is no different.

Also consider in a 6 speed car you start in 1st and are into 6th by 30mph. In that short space of time you will have done 4 or 5 gear changes, everyone required the clutch to be used.

You then have to slow slightly to 25mph as a car pulls out, the car starts labouring so you drop down to 4th, you can then increase speed to 30 so change back up to 6th - sequence being 6-4-5-6 (poss 4-6 if you block change, also not a good idea at lower speeds) another 2/3 gear changes. The fixation with getting into top asap results in hundreds more gearchanges than necessary and a new clutch is a lot more than the fuel you think you are saving. Leaving a 6 speed car in 4th will probably result in far fewer gearchanges.

Similarly imagine you are in a 30 zone in 6th and enter a NSL area. You need to drop a couple of cogs to get you up to NSL, then change back up the box to 6th - more gearchanges.

In urban 30mph areas I use 3rd gear in our Aygo all the time. I can slow to 20mph and accelerate quickly back to 30mph without a gearchange and when the speed limit increases 3rd gear is so flexible no gearchanges are required to accelerate to beyond the motorway limit. The car still returns 45+mpg in urban driving.





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Fri 22 Oct 2010 09:42
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - Sofa Spud

QUOTE:...""I thought current advanced driver training recommended 3rd gear when driving in built up areas to permit good speed control, throttle response and engine braking?""

It entirely depends on the car. My last car was a VW Passat 1.9 TDI with a 5-speed gearbox and it was decidedly unhappy in 4th gear at 30 mph, so I tended to only use 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears around town. I now have a VW Touran 1.9 TDI which has a 6-speed gearbox on which 3rd and 4th are lower ratios than on the Passat and it's perfectly comfortable, safe and controllable in 4th at 30 mph. I tend to use 5th from 45 mph upwards and 6th from about 55 mph on this particular car.

This contrasts with one of my first cars, a Ford Prefect 100E, which had a 3-speed gearbox. The rule of thumb on that was to change into top (3rd) at about 25 mph and stay there!

Edited by Sofa Spud on 22/10/2010 at 09:45

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Fri 22 Oct 2010 10:23
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - Westpig

The lower gear e.g. 3rd in a 30mph limit, is designed for greater flexibility safety wise.. at times.. i.e. not all the time. So if in a 30mph limit you might use 4th, but then when approaching a hazard e.g. traffic lights on green, when you'd slip it into 3rd throughout the hazard, then afterwards put it back in 4th.

That way if you needed sudden acceleration for safety reasons you've got it readily available.

Police advanced driving techniques don't advocate that all the time i.e. you pick your moments..... and thereby remain more aware, rather than doing it by habit. I'm not able to comment on the civilian advanced driving techniques.

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Fri 22 Oct 2010 13:59
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - Cymrogwyllt

When doing the IAM course it was suggested to me that I use 3rd in a 30. This was for better control and acceleration. An added advantage is that, when you get to know the car, you become able to joudge 30 mph pretty accurately by the sound of the engine. That allows you to keep eyes on the outside for longer.

On a personal level I'd say it depends on the car. For example- My previous car was a Polo 1.2 petrol and at 30 mph 4th gear was fine. My present car, Polo Bluemotion, 1.4 diesel that has different gearing, 4th in a 30 has the revs practically on idle and I use 3rd in a 30.

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Fri 22 Oct 2010 15:37
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - ForumNeedsModerating

Perhaps it's best not to get too fixated on the nominal gear, (as it must be different in most models/engine types & also dependent on load, gradient, road type etc.) but be in a gear that allows brisk acceleration without changing gear for most situations - be that 30,40,50,60 or NSL roads - with the exception being, perhaps, 'cruising' at speed limit on 50/60 or NSL roads.

I also hate to feel a labouring engine in a car & am generally in a gear that attains the local speed limit at or just under max (or steeply rising) torque rpm.

My Mondeo 4 with 143ps diesel, is generally comfortable though in 4th for 30-40 limits - maybe 3rd if dipping to 15-20mph frequently.

Edited by woodbines on 22/10/2010 at 15:39

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Fri 22 Oct 2010 15:59
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - Dutchie

Hello Westpig i should think that the police advanced driving techmiques are as good as civilian advance driving techniques.Anybody on this forum with a advance civilian driving technique certificate and is it worthwhile taking lessons? Just curious.

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Fri 22 Oct 2010 19:26
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - Cymrogwyllt
If you mean is it worth doing a course such as the IAM advanced test then I think it's well worth it. Back in the 70's I was taught to drive by my father including a loan of Roadcraft book (former police class1 driver. Rare beast when he did it) and got a couple of formal lessons to prepare for the test. Four or five years ago I decided to do the IAM advanced test to get rid of any bad habits I'd developed. Glad I did it.
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Fri 22 Oct 2010 20:16
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - dieseldogg

Well, Hi Sur,

I's is not an advanced driver in that I have never sat the test.

And I might well fail the test if I did it.

However

However after 33 years driving....... learning all the time and avoiding accidents and conflict, without the benefit of a "badge" to cover for those perhaps otherwise questionable overtaking manouvers..

And still occassionaly getting it slightly wrong ie when i's is tooo relaxed.

And are IAM drivers any different? Really?

I know one, i.e. a IAM qualified driver............. nothing special on the driving front...............and parks ..............sorry abandons his car like a "dork"

But hey he once upon a time passed the test.

I's tink that an experience & competent driver will use whatever gear seems right, like the ould Galaxy will quite happy pull anywhere from 25 to 30 mph in 5th, and I can assure you it only take me a split second to pick 2nd or 3rd if I need to accelerate.

But erm why should I need too, not being a Police or emergency driver.

And I forby..........I pay for my own fuel.

Cheers

M

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Wed 27 Oct 2010 23:05
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - Leif

and I can assure you it only take me a split second to pick 2nd or 3rd if I need to accelerate.

The whole point about being in the right gear rather than having to change down is that in an emergency it is all too easy to fluff a gear change, and those extra few seconds could be crucial.

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Fri 22 Oct 2010 20:39
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - peg

I took the IAM test in 84 and it very infomative and worthwhile and will make you a better/safer and more competent driver.Reading Roadcraft is a good intro to advanced driving techniques.

I recon the IAM or Rospa.test should be complsory within 2/3 yr of passing the standard driving test,if it was 25-30% would not pass as they have'nt the aptitude/skill required.

There are too many incompetant,aggresive and spacially challenged drivers on the roads, advanced test would weed them out and the roads would be much safer all round.

PEG

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Wed 27 Oct 2010 23:05
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - Leif

i should think that the police advanced driving techmiques are as good as civilian advance driving techniques.

I am told that police advanced driving standards (traffic police, not ordinary) are far higher than the IAM test. My car is considerably more fuel efficient in 5th gear at 30+mph. But IAM standards suggest 3rd. I don't believe the nonsense about betting judging speed in 3rd due to engine noise at least not in my car. And I find it harder to stick to 30mph in 3rd due to the extra pull available.

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Sun 24 Oct 2010 00:16
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - k9dan

OOO err , "Today as all days I will drive this etc etc" Right gear, for the right speed at the right time. Off now to watch smokey and the bandit.

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Fri 22 Oct 2010 20:29
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - P3t3r

I think eco driving does conflict with road craft.

By looking at the instant consumption readings in my car at 30mph, it tells me that the most economical way to drive is in the highest gear possible. At this speed 6th gear was only slightly better than 5th gear so 5th gear is probably better due to the increased flexibility. At higher speeds (or downhill) 6th gear is likely to beat 5th by a significant amount.

There are issues with the eco driving technique though. One of the things I really dislike is the speed that HJ changes gear. It is very harsh on the gearbox, and I wouldn't want somebody do that with my gearbox. Even if it does save a few pence I don't think it's worth abusing the gearbox.

Another problem is the wear on the brakes. If you brake when using a high gear then your brakes will do more work and wear faster. Roadcraft encourages a flexible gear which will usually give more engine braking when it's needed. This can be more noticeable on twisty country roads when you use acceleration followed by braking for a bends. When you can control the speed with the accelerator pedal you can get a very smooth and (fairly) economical ride. When you lift your foot of the throttle modern cars won't use any fuel. In a higher gear you will probably need to use the brakes and then change to a lower gear to accelerate after the hazard.

By breaking/bending the roadcraft rules you can improve fuel consumption. However, you really need to make sure that you aren't compromising safety. If you have a collision you are going to be seriously out of pocket and seriously damage the environment too.

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Fri 22 Oct 2010 20:39
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - dieseldogg

Well seeing as how I get about 50,000/60,000 miles out of a set of brake pads.

and got 226,000 on the origional clutch.

And on the origonal perfectly functioning gearbox

And have not "comprimised safety" cos not been in any accidents

I do not see any conflict in respect of wear & tear.

Its ALL about brain function and the resulting anticapatition/avoidance.

Doh!

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Fri 22 Oct 2010 21:37
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - Dutchie

There you are dieseldogg brain functon that is the key.>)

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Sun 24 Oct 2010 20:32
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - fredthefifth

To answer the original question - Yes, I think it does.

I recall listening to a person boasting about how far they can drive without using the brakes. They considered it a challenge. Apparently on their car the 'faulty light bulb' warning light didn't go out until the brake peddle was pressed.

I thought at the time that they must a right pain to follow at times.

FTF
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Mon 25 Oct 2010 17:55
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - davecooper

Using too higher gear for the speed, i.e. 5th at 25mph puts a huge strain on the engine and gearbox. Referring to the bicycle analogy, think of the strain you put on your legs and the transmission (engine and gearbox) pedalling in too higher gear.

I'm not sure if it is still true but many cars top speed used not to be achievable in top gear due to wind resistance and the next gear down was needed to actually overcome this and achieve top speed. This shows why top gear certainly shouldn't be used at low speeds.

I once considered buying a car from a self confessed "stay in top gear" driver but declined when I found out the gearbox whined like a banshee in fifth.

As far as I am concerned, 3rd or 4th at 30mph unless in a housing estate or town centre etc when 3rd is the order of the day.

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Mon 25 Oct 2010 19:31
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - SteveLee

Under-revving an engine does the big end bearings a great deal of damage, you should never lug an engine if you put your foot down and there's little response - you're in the wrong gear!

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Mon 25 Oct 2010 20:36
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - Dutchie

The answer for most people then would be to drive a automatc car.Don't have to worry about the right gear at certain speeds just put the lever in D.

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Wed 27 Oct 2010 22:09
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - dieseldogg

Dave Cooper & Steve Lee

Please read my post as above.

Feel free to organise an RAC/AA ? certifed inspection of whatever sort of the Galaxy cos she is still here. & still going like a clock, though tiddles(=daughter) slips the clutch a tad in second instead of popping her back into first, tsk tsk.

Thats the origional clutch at 226,000 & counting btw ( and there is a well tested towbar forby)

Brain function combined with some fine motor skills (in the neuroligical sense) combined with a modicum of mechanical sympathy all overlaid with a dose of common sense.

Simples

Really

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Wed 27 Oct 2010 23:07
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - Leif

Another problem is the wear on the brakes. If you brake when using a high gear then your brakes will do more work and wear faster. Roadcraft encourages a flexible gear which will usually give more engine braking when it's needed.

I always thought that the IAM encouraged use of brakes rather than engine braking on the grounds that brake pads are cheaper to replace than gears.

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Thu 28 Oct 2010 00:28
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - Dutchie

So did I brakes for braking and gears for speeding up have things changed?

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Thu 28 Oct 2010 10:17
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - dieseldogg

Scheesh,

Did you miss 50 or 60 thou miles on brake pads (as above)

Of course being a diesel driver I have better engine braking in higher gears.

Not to mention sufficient forward observation ( not a diesel specific attribute btw)

as to allow me back off the throttle such as to avoid the need for heavy braking on reaching the hold-up, aiming to be ready to pick a suitable gear and immediately smoothly accelerate away again.

A good "game" to play at the traffic lights in multiple lanes of traffic.

tee hee

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Thu 28 Oct 2010 13:29
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - davecooper

"Feel free to organise an RAC/AA ? certifed inspection of whatever sort of the Galaxy cos she is still here. & still going like a clock"

Don't doubt it one little bit. I was merely stating the fact that stressing an engine is not good for it. The driver to whom I was referring would change into fifth at about 25mph and not drop to fourth unless he dropped to 20mph. There would be barely any acceleration from these low speeds, even with his foot flat to the floor and the noises coming from under the bonnet were not good.

That is what I mean by stressing an engine.

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Thu 28 Oct 2010 13:55
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - Dutchie

You have a point davecooper why do we stress a engine?To safe a few pounds on fuel and drive in 5th gear at thirty mile a hr.The driver you mentioned I would't buy a car from.

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Thu 28 Oct 2010 14:18
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - Leif

So did I brakes for braking and gears for speeding up have things changed?

The phrase I learnt is something like "brakes to slow, gears to go".

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Thu 28 Oct 2010 14:33
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - Dutchie

Whats the difference leif? Funny turn?

Changed to correct spelling of user name.

Edited by BorisTheSpider on 28/10/2010 at 17:32

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Thu 28 Oct 2010 18:33
eco driving - does it conflict with Roadcraft? - Leif

Whats the difference leif? Funny turn?

Changed to correct spelling of user name.

Sorry, but I don't understand your post. What's the difference between what? The 'funny turn' statement makes no sense.

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