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Mon 4 Oct 2010 20:42

Bad overtake? - P3t3r

I was driving behind a vehicle doing approx 30mph in a 40mph limit. After a while I could see a large gap in the oncoming traffic so I decided to overtake. At this point the vehicle had crept up to about 32mph.

My acceleration appeared to be a lot slower than I expected. As I reached 40mph I realised that the other driver had accelerated too. Some oncoming vehicles appeared at this point, but I was past the half way point so there was no point going back. Once I was in front of the other vehicle it matched my speed (40mph). Going back didn't seem like a good idea because the other car would probably returned back to 30mph which would mean I would need to do no more than 20mph to get back in safely, and if there were vehicles behind us the it could get quite dangerous. So I gave a left signal for this vehicle and for the oncoming vehicles. The driver only needed to lift of, but he still maintained his speed. When I didn't have much road left I pulled in, which made the other driver brake hard and flash their lights. I had left enough space so that the oncoming vehicles didn't need to change their speed and they didn't flash their lights at me.

After this I managed to get a pretty big gap between us, so the driver obviously returned to a significantly slower speed. At about this point a police car pulled me over with lights flashing. The officer told me that what I did was very dangerous, but she couldn't do anything because she wasn't 'traffic'. She said it was very dangerous and if she was 'traffic' she would have given me points for dangerous driving. What does this mean, was she not qualified to make these decisions, or was she busy with other things? Who decides what is dangerous driving, do police officers decide or do they need evidence?

From this point she then said things which made me think that she didn't know what she was talking about. She thought it was outrageous that I was no completely the wrong side of the road and not just slightly on the wrong side of the road. Overtaking without going on completely the wrong side of the road would be VERY dangerous IMO. At the time/place I started the overtake there were no oncoming vehicles, no entrances, no parked vehicles and not even any pedestrians on the other side of the road. So completely the wrong side of the road was the place to be. I did tell her this, but I didn't want to argue too much because I knew that she wouldn't do anything. In addition to that my mind had gone blank when they stopped me, and I couldn't remember many details at the time. What qualifications do police officers need to stop people for motoring offences, and what do they need to even use lights? I'm sure they must have had advanced qualifications, but it sounded like they didn't know much at all.

Then there are some other things I'm struggling to understand. How did they manage to 'see everything' (she told me that) from so far back? Unless they were directly behind me then I think it would probably be impossible to judge whether it was safe or not. It also annoys me that it was so black and white for her. I ended up in a very difficult situation and it's very easy for a driver to make the wrong decision.

In retrospect, I'm not sure whether I made the right decisions. As I said before, I ended up in a very difficult position because of another driver. I believe my initial decision to overtake was fine. There was more than enough space to overtake. Once the other driver had matched my speed it's hard to say whether braking would have been a better decision. There was never any need for the other driver to brake. Once I gave my signal they could have just lifted off. It was obvious where I was going, there was oncoming traffic. Alternatively they could have just continued at their original speed, or even if they went up to 36mph then I would have been fine.

What about the other driver? Well what they did was obviously dangerous driving wasn't it? Despite there being oncoming traffic they still didn't want to let me in. Were they trying to cause a head on collision? If the police officer(s) 'saw everything' then why didn't they stop them instead or at least mention it to me? Although I didn't have a problem with them driving at 30mph, it does raise some concerns and they shouldn't expect others to do the same speed.

What about the police officers? Well, I've been thinking about what they must have seen. They probably only saw relative speeds rather than the actual speeds (I suspect they were accelerating away from a junction when it all started). As the other driver accelerated when I did, my speed difference must have remained very low all the time. Maybe the police officer thought I decided to overtake a car doing 38-39mph? Even if they did, they shouldn't blame people for things unless they really do know what happened.

I did have respect for the police, but that has changed now. I felt that what the police officer said wasn't constructive at all. It would have been better if she could have explained where I went wrong and how I could do better in future. Actually I found some of what she said quite patronising.

Since this has happened I have been more aware of bad driving around me. I often get people cut me up with gaps no bigger than what I left for the person I was overtaking. The difference is that these people don't signal, and don't accelerate when they pass me, and it is at higher speeds. In addition to that I see all sorts of illegal driving. Speeding, stopping in box junctions, jumping lights and tailgating (which seems to cause significant number of accidents on the roads I use). Why don't the police catch these people instead of stopping people who may have made a slightly bad decision?

What do people think? Was the police officer right? Surely it's a simple case of the other person driving dangerously?

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Mon 4 Oct 2010 21:45

Bad overtake? - ablandy

Well, i wasnt there, but sounds like you failed in your overtake. Unfortunately it is very difficult once an overtake has been started to give up and slot back in. Sometimes you overtake and people speed up. Annoying , yes, dangerous, sometimes. So if you dont have enough oomph to overtake quickly and safely dont.

Besides, so what its 40 and they are going 30. Not going to make much difference to your journey and they will probably catch you up at the next lights anyway.

I speak from experience, having been driving for 20 years. But i still remember my first foolish overtake, in a fiat panda. Going head on towards a tractor, only just making it back in taught me a lot. Could have taught me an unpleasant lesson about physics, but i was lucky.

Learn from this experience, respect the police and be aware that other people are bad drivers too. Learn an instinct for who they are and you will save yourself a bump or two.

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Mon 4 Oct 2010 21:57

Bad overtake? - P3t3r

Well, i wasnt there, but sounds like you failed in your overtake. Unfortunately it is very difficult once an overtake has been started to give up and slot back in. Sometimes you overtake and people speed up. Annoying , yes, dangerous, sometimes. So if you dont have enough oomph to overtake quickly and safely dont.

Besides, so what its 40 and they are going 30. Not going to make much difference to your journey and they will probably catch you up at the next lights anyway.

I speak from experience, having been driving for 20 years. But i still remember my first foolish overtake, in a fiat panda. Going head on towards a tractor, only just making it back in taught me a lot. Could have taught me an unpleasant lesson about physics, but i was lucky.

Learn from this experience, respect the police and be aware that other people are bad drivers too. Learn an instinct for who they are and you will save yourself a bump or two.

I had more than enough oomph. Once they were doing 40mph no amount of oomph would have been enough.

Probably not a huge difference in journey time, but I had a choice, and decided that I wanted to do 40mph. There is the problem of a long queue behind, people tailgating, and potentially overtaking dangerously, so I don't like being sat behind slow drivers. I don't really care whether they caught me up at the lights, but with the speed they were doing they probably wouldn't have.

I suppose my real mistake was being slow to identify that the other driver was accelerating. It is hard to judge this though, so I'm not sure whether I'll be able to identify this in the future.

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Mon 4 Oct 2010 23:07

Bad overtake? - likerocks

P3t3r,

Again, I wasn't there so this is just my 2p worth. I think you were justified in wanting to drive at the speed limit rather than a full 10mph below it. Maybe you'll be caught at the next lights, maybe you won't, but if the overtake was safe then it's only your problem whether it was worthwhile or not.

Having attempted a few daft overtakes in my foolish youth, I quickly came up with an "is it worth it" formula in my mind which included the likelihood of having to stop at the next lights or getting held up by more slow traffic a bit further down the road.

Giving the benefit of the doubt to the other driver, I would say that it's not uncommon for a driver who is slower through bends etc to naturally pick up speed just as they see the same stretch of open, safe road that you had earmarked for your overtake. If they're not aware enough to make good progress they probably won't have seen you in their mirrors either. A bit of driver behaviour observation prior to committing to your overtake might come in handy.

Without the benefit of the doubt, then it may just be a case of you coming up against a minor psychopath who would happily have kept you on the wrong side of the road in the face of oncoming traffic. You do get them, sometimes even normal people when not behind a wheel. You'll know to keep an eye out in future and maybe be a bit more decisive about abandoning the overtake if there's not enough of a speed differential.

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Mon 4 Oct 2010 23:21

Bad overtake? - likerocks

a couple more thoughts:

personally I very rarely commit to an overtake with less than 100% power application in a suitable gear (3000+ rpm on the clock). By reading the road ahead and applying a bit of roadcraft, I will have already got a 5 to 10mph on the vehicle ahead before starting to go side by side. They'd have to try very hard to out accelerate me in this situation.

Without knowing you or your vehicle, I would suggest that the police officer was making some assumptions about you and your driving without having "seen everything".

By any chance, you're not a young, male, relatively newly qualified driver are you? If so, then you may have been in the unfortunate position of reminding the officer of some much more unpleasant scenes on the road. Best to take it on the chin, accept that there probably are some things you can learn from the incident and try to avoid developing a persecution complex!

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Tue 5 Oct 2010 01:30

Bad overtake? - Bilboman

I can identify with this situation, but a key difference in most continental countries is the very common, actually recommended/obligatory use of a hoot or flash before overtaking - the mostly ignored 'I AM HERE' function stated in the Highway Code, which in Britain only seems to inflame the overtaken driver. A driver being overtaken is obliged to move as far as possible to the nearside of his lane and speeding up is a specific offence.
Overall a better system, but the 'after you!' flash is rarely used as a consequence. I do feel a lot more confident flashing and overtaking the unrestricted HGVs in Spain, I have to say!

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Tue 5 Oct 2010 09:21

Bad overtake? - P3t3r

I can identify with this situation, but a key difference in most continental countries is the very common, actually recommended/obligatory use of a hoot or flash before overtaking - the mostly ignored 'I AM HERE' function stated in the Highway Code, which in Britain only seems to inflame the overtaken driver. A driver being overtaken is obliged to move as far as possible to the nearside of his lane and speeding up is a specific offence. Overall a better system, but the 'after you!' flash is rarely used as a consequence. I do feel a lot more confident flashing and overtaking the unrestricted HGVs in Spain, I have to say!

That definately sounds a lot better. In my situation I don't think there was any need for a light flash (I would consider one if I thought it would help). I think it would have been interpreted as being aggressive or 'go faster'.

In this country it seems very rare that horns and light flashes are used correctly. I suspect that there are very few drivers who actually know what they are for.

In my situation one of two things happened. Either the driver suddenly decided to drive significantly faster, but didn't check his mirrors or anything. Or the driver saw me over taking and decided that he wouldn't let me past, which sounds more likely. I think he was completely aware of me.

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Tue 5 Oct 2010 09:24

Bad overtake? - ForumNeedsModerating

The only obvious 'fault' I can see is that you gave the numpty (for whatever reason: psycho, unobservant, erratic etc etc) driver in front too much notice and/or too little speed in passing. That is, you should be going a good 40(+10% )mph behind him/her before even pulling out - it makes the overtake a 'no contest' - even if the numpty tries something.

I accelerate in the same lane (when I've judged all relevant factors & decided to go..) & am going at full 'differential' before I even leave my lane: the driver in front has little time to react (if they're of the contrary type), you're in the opposite for far less time & you have the option of braking at the last second while still in your own lane - much easier to brake behind something than brake & change lanes.

Other than that you just had the misfortune to meet numpty driver & ill-informed (from the description of the conversation you gave..) police officer.

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Tue 5 Oct 2010 18:59

Bad overtake? - P3t3r

The only obvious 'fault' I can see is that you gave the numpty (for whatever reason: psycho, unobservant, erratic etc etc) driver in front too much notice and/or too little speed in passing. That is, you should be going a good 40(+10% )mph behind him/her before even pulling out - it makes the overtake a 'no contest' - even if the numpty tries something.

That's not the roadcraft way and it considered bad practice. In this situation I had oncoming vehicles until the point I could overtake.

If I was doing 40mph I would have been committed. If an oncoming vehicle decided to slow down for some reason eg. to stop then I may have needed to brake hard to avoid going into theback of the other vehicle.

My acceleration was steady, not fast. There should have been no need to put my foot down. IIRC I was in 3rd gear, so I had reasonable performance.

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Tue 5 Oct 2010 09:17

Bad overtake? - P3t3r

Without knowing you or your vehicle, I would suggest that the police officer was making some assumptions about you and your driving without having "seen everything".

By any chance, you're not a young, male, relatively newly qualified driver are you? If so, then you may have been in the unfortunate position of reminding the officer of some much more unpleasant scenes on the road. Best to take it on the chin, accept that there probably are some things you can learn from the incident and try to avoid developing a persecution complex!

I was thinking the same thing myself, and think you could be right. I'm in my mid twenties, so I'm arguably just outside the risky age group. My car looks like a modified young persons car, but it is a standard Panda 100HP. It has privacy glass so I doubt that they would be able to see what age I was, but they probably could have found the age of the registered owner on their computer.

I am an advanced driver, and apply roadcraft too. The most similar thing I can remember happened during my IAM test. On the IAM test the other person didn't speed up though, it was entirely my fault (if you can call it a 'fault'). However, the examiner said that I did the right thing and he would have marked me down if I didn't do the overtake.

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Tue 5 Oct 2010 10:37

Bad overtake? - ablandy

The police pulled you over because from where they were sitting you overtook, took too long to complete the move and forced the other car to brake hard to avoid a head on collision. They would have found it difficult to discern the huge 8 mph acceleration you say this car made while you were overtaking.

Perfectly good reason to have a word in my opinion. You got lucky, but by your own admission it was close, so this could have ended in an accident - perhaps even a head on collision.

A car accelerating 8mph should make no difference to your overtake in my opinion. If it did, you did it wrong. A 100hp panda has a decent amount of power so you should be able to do this safelty.

You mentioned you had plenty of space to overtake, but you couldnt have or you wouldnt have had to pull in hard. You say they accelerated 8 mph, I dont see that this would close the gap very much. Or to put it another way, it doesnt sound like advanced driving to me.

You may think I am being unduly hard on you, but I see too many numpties in small cars who think they are driving a ferrari coming at me in the opposite direction while taking half a year to overtake. Not what you want to see with the family on board.

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Tue 5 Oct 2010 14:23

Bad overtake? - Leif

I wasn't there to witness what happened, but taking what you say at face value:

As I understand it a driver has a duty to allow another car to overtake safey if they see someone overtaking them. In your case the other driver was at fault for blocking an overtake, whether intentionally or through lack of observation. It sounds like you were well into the overtake, so he/she must have seen you it was intentional, and that would surely merit prosecution for dangerous driving.

The question then is what should you have done. You started the overtake when it was safe to do so. You were then blocked from pulling in. I feel that you share some of the blame for not cancelling the manouevre once it became clear what he/she was doing.

I have been in exactly the same situation. I started to overtake a car going at much less than the limit. I was almost able to pull in, but as I accelerated, so did the other car. It took me ages to realise that I was being blocked, by which time we were approaching a bend, and I cancelled the manouevre. I was in a very dangerous position at the time. My fault was not cancelling earlier. I never realised that someone could be so dangerous as to block an overtake. Note that he did not pull ahead of me, but positioned himself with the nose of his car just in front of the back of mine. At some lights I got out of my car to have a word with the driver. I very politely asked if he had seen me. Yes he had. I politely asked him if he was blocking my overtake. He said yes. I then explained that there could have been a head on crash. He said "so what, that's your problem". I then told him where to go. It still amazes me that such people are on our roads. He was a young man in a moderately fast car. After I spoke to him, he shot off at very high speed.

Anyway, hopefully we have both learnt from our mistakes. I think the correct approach would be to cancel the manoeuvre once there is any doubt about completing it in the space ahead. Oh, and to factor in to any overtake decision the possibility that the driver in front is a total perlonker.

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Tue 5 Oct 2010 16:01

Bad overtake? - P3t3r

The question then is what should you have done. You started the overtake when it was safe to do so. You were then blocked from pulling in. I feel that you share some of the blame for not cancelling the manouevre once it became clear what he/she was doing.

I think you're probably right. It's something I find hard to judge, but I suppose it was also something that I didn't expect. In future I probably need to look out for it.

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Tue 5 Oct 2010 17:18

Bad overtake? - SteveLee

If you've got a reasonably powerful car it sounds like you were in the wrong gear, the other driver should not have been able to match you just by putting their foot down after noticing your overtake - unless the other party was drving an auto.

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Tue 5 Oct 2010 18:02

Bad overtake? - Dutchie

He should have slowed down to let you overtake,it has happened to me driver increases speed to stop you overtaking.The world is full of nutcases be carefull next time.

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Tue 5 Oct 2010 20:14

Bad overtake? - dieseldogg

Except I drive at a sensible speed about 50/55 mph on A class 70/80 odd on the Motorway.

& If I am driving in a long queue of cars I leave a reasonable 3 second gap.

There are plently of numpties who feel it is necessary to overtake me to go nowhere ( or indeed to turn in to the left, on occassion) thereby causing me to brake unnessarily, and then drop back to leave my accustomed gap.

For no nett benefit to either party.

Which causing inconvience to other road users, is I understand, from sommat Junior recited prior to his first time/low minors driving test pass recently, contravenes the highway code.

Cheers

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Wed 6 Oct 2010 10:52

Bad overtake? - Dutchie

Good point Dieseldogg driving at a sensible speed ,in that case overtaking into a small gap makes no sense.I don't know if this was the case with the OP.

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Wed 6 Oct 2010 12:49

Bad overtake? - ForumNeedsModerating

"There are plently of numpties who feel it is necessary to overtake me to go nowhere ( or indeed to turn in to the left, on occassion) thereby causing me to brake unnessarily, and then drop back to leave my accustomed gap.

For no nett benefit to either party."

You can't always know though - the overtaker might be passing one at a time to get to

past the passive queue - quite likely in fact.

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Wed 6 Oct 2010 16:48

Bad overtake? - happy polo

dieseldogg - If you are driving on an A road with a 60mph limit, assuming it is a clear open road and the conditions are safe, why do you consider it to be 'sensible' to trundle along at up to a full 10mph below the permissable speed limit? That is nothing less than antisocial! I frequently drive between Bristol and the south coast via the A36, and whilst I am certainly not 'on a mission', I do appreciate being able to proceed at the speed limit whenever safe, as it is my intention to arrive at a destination, hence my being on a direct A road route in the first place. I do not partake of dangerous overtaking efforts, but I can see why you find yourself often being overtaken by people 'going nowhere' - it is more than likely through sheer frustration! Being stuck behind a 'bimbler' who has not the confidence nor the awareness of, or consideration for, others to use the available speed limits and make appropriate progress, is intensely irritating and you will doubtless find people trying to overtake you - some sadly less skilled than others! Unless there is a specific reason not to, a driver ought to be suitably skilled to drive roughly at the speed limit for the road and make reasonable progress...

Edited by happy polo on 06/10/2010 at 16:49

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Wed 6 Oct 2010 16:50

Bad overtake? - ianhad2

It's why I drive a reasonably powered car, so I can accelerate quickly round idiots that don't like being overtaken. You should have pointed out to the police that the other person accelerated to prevent your passing.

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Wed 6 Oct 2010 17:50

Bad overtake? - Ethan Edwards

Wrong no 1 - the other driver accellerated whilst you were attempting an overtake.

Wrong No 2 - The 'red mist' came down and you felt you were committed. (be honest).

Two wrongs don't make a right.

IMO You had two choices. Either over take much much faster and get in front ignoring the 40 limit. A poor choice since this psycho may keep pace with you over 40.

Alternatively Give it up and slot back in behind. Find a better place to pass and do a proper job. Remember it's not a macho contest, you don't lose face, but you could lose your life and or hit an oncoming vehicle. It's not worth it.

As a general rule - I always pass vehicles in the minimum time possible -every time.

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Wed 6 Oct 2010 18:05

Bad overtake? - P3t3r

Wrong No 2 - The 'red mist' came down and you felt you were committed. (be honest).

No, I didn't suffer from red mist at all, and I remained completely calm. I'm 100% certain about this. The moment I pulled back over, my mind had moved on completely. I never let red mist get in the way. It was a very difficult decision, and red mist didn't influence it.

Actually, this is one thing that I am pleased about. I have proved to myself that I don't let red mist get in the way in these kind of situations.

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Wed 6 Oct 2010 18:10

Bad overtake? - P3t3r

It's why I drive a reasonably powered car, so I can accelerate quickly round idiots that don't like being overtaken. You should have pointed out to the police that the other person accelerated to prevent your passing.

Yes, that's what I thought, but at the time my mind went completely blank. It's quite weird really.

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Wed 6 Oct 2010 18:17

Bad overtake? - Problem_Polo :-/

It's a little worrying that non-traffic Plods are out and about giving drivers their 'valued' opinions, but as the lady said at the time, if they're not traffic then TBH they can't do a great deal worth worrying about, so I shouldn't worry about it! As for the driver training issue, as far as I know I think the non-specialist drivers are given some basic training by the police (my Dad went for a job as a civilian driving instructor doing this some years ago). Pretty sure they need to be specialist trained for chasing people, but whether that covers just pulling people like in your situ I don't know, don't think it does?!

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Wed 6 Oct 2010 21:11

Bad overtake? - dieseldogg

Ah, Yes

I failed to make it clear that on our local roads 50/55mph is the norm, therefore I am driving at the speed of the other road users, the ones in front of me. Therefore I CANNOT be obstructing anyone behind me.

I would also add that if I were driving at 10mph less than the other road users there would NOT be a queue of cars in front of me, would there?

I also, if only tootling, say on a Sunday afternoon out...... do NOT obstruct other road users, indeed even speeding up as appropriate if there is no opportunity for the following vehicle to overtake, and slowing down and indicating left as soon as an opportunity arises.

Especially if towing.

I am not however a saint and bytimes could be doing 30 in a 40 etc

or indeed 80 in a 60

But only when safe to do so.

All too often on said roads, when I reach a roundabout, I come up behind the car that insisted on overtaking me a wheen of miles back.

For some reason they get really annoyed if I then pass them by reading the road ahead & passing them on the roundabout, all whilst using correct lane discipline.

Hey, it amuses me.

Cheers

Oh PS I used to drive a Polo, as fast as was possible, with maturity comes some sense.

Edited by dieseldogg on 06/10/2010 at 21:13

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