Ford Mondeo - 03 Reg 2.0 TDCi 65k Miles - DMF issue, I pay 50%??

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Thu 16 Sep 2010 12:04
Ford Mondeo - 03 Reg 2.0 TDCi 65k Miles - DMF issue, I pay 50%?? - CJ508

I recently bought an 03 Modeo from a trade company who are part of 'West Yorkshire Trading Standards Motor Trade Partnership for £3000. The price was above what I would have liked to have payed but having the assurance of a 'reputable company' was worth the extra money to me. Plus I'm no car mechanic and thought there would be an extra element of trust.

Before purchasing I took it for a test drive and it drove well. The only issue was a knocking noise on start-up which I was advised was normal for a diesel and it was put in writing that the issue would be fixed.

After driving the car away, 2 or 3 engine starts later it sounded like a bag of spanners was being washed under the bonnet, the engine wouldn't rev and the cluth stuck flat to the floor. After switching the engine off and starting again, it did the knock but ticked over if not a bit noisy. I had a mechanic mate look at it for peace of mind and he straight away that it's most likely a fault with the Dual Mass Flywheel and it sould need to be replaced.

I contacted the dealer who said he'd look at it but said it's very unlikely theres anything wrong with the DMF. At the dealership, he took it for a drive and flatly denied it to be a DMF issue, even though the horrible spanners under the bonnet issue arose on two occasions. He had a quiet word with his service manager who advised to have an update to the ECU which should solve the problem and that it should be booked into Benfield Ford down the road to have this (which would've taken over a week to arrange!).

Unhappy with this response, I took the car to Benfield myself just to discuss with a mechanic there what was wrong. They had a quick once over on the car and offered that it was a suspected DMF fault and would require the gearbox to be dropped to fix at nearly 1/3 price I payed for the car in the first place!

I researched my rights and contacted the dealership to advise them I wasn't accepting the car under the SOGA and would require a refund. This issue wouldn't manifest overnight and any twobit mechanic must've known the problem existed. I confirmed my rejection in writing.

The dealership responded saying that just because Benfield Ford SUSPECTED There was a DMF issue, didn't mean there was one and that they wanted to check it themselves (what more could they do though seen as they would have to drop the gearbox themselves at huge expense just to check!) It was apparent I was just getting fobbed off.

After speaking to Trading Standards, they suggested giving the dealer the chance to fix the car before rejecting the car. I let them book the car into Benfield themselves for the ECU update and an IDF check. It came back

with no faults technically but that they advised the gearbox needed removing as they suspect flywheel problems.

The dealer came back to me saying it would cost them £705 to fix the DMF with new clutch and they would pay 50% towards. I'm absolutely fuming and believe I should have to pay anything else senn as they knew the problem existed when I bought the car. I have been without the car since I bought it a month ago, I have been paying insurance on the car, and also insurance on a 2nd vehicle in order to get to work.

Could someone please suggest what I am entitled to do in the eyes of the law bearing in mind they did say (in writing) they would fix the 'knock on start' issue?

Thanks!

CJ

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Thu 16 Sep 2010 12:45
Ford Mondeo - 03 Reg 2.0 TDCi 65k Miles - DMF issue, I pay 50%?? - LucyBC

Difficult one as the problem is ostensibly fixed and hence your grounds to reject may have gone - but there are possible future problems. If you get a failure beyond six months after purchase it is unlikely you will have a SOGA claim on a vehicle of this age and value.

I assume you did not buy a warranty on the car?

The deal offered is going to cost you £350 and you will get a new DMF and a new clutch. Obviously you can try and negotiate further but given the age of the vehicle, the possibility that without the repair a clutch may be needed anyway (and you won't get that funded), and your expressed wish for peace of mind, I would be tempted to go for it.

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Thu 16 Sep 2010 13:40
Ford Mondeo - 03 Reg 2.0 TDCi 65k Miles - DMF issue, I pay 50%?? - CJ508

Thanks for your prompt response!

I appreciate what you mean about it being ostensibly fixed. It seems silly that I'd have to hope it failed within the 6 months to prove there was a fault at the time of purchase, which there obviously is.

I have a 28 day warranty that came as part of the deal but this hasn't been mentioned. I believe they wouldn't do anything as they will say the DMF issue is just wear and tear and not covered. I will follow this up though.

Thanks again for your help.

CJ

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Thu 16 Sep 2010 17:30
Ford Mondeo - 03 Reg 2.0 TDCi 65k Miles - DMF issue, I pay 50%?? - bonzo dog

Hi CJ, sorry to hear of your problems, which do unfortunately occurr with older cars. whilst it certainly shouldn't happen as soon as you drive away .... if sometimes does!

However, i'm a bit puzzled as to what the franchised dealer has done. Are you saying all they have done is an ECU update & that the problem has disappeared or have you not driven the car yet?

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Thu 16 Sep 2010 18:22
Ford Mondeo - 03 Reg 2.0 TDCi 65k Miles - DMF issue, I pay 50%?? - CJ508

I haven't driven the car yet as it is with the company I bought it from (they booked it into the franchised dealer as I gave them the opportunity to try diagnose the problem).

The franchised dealer carried out an IDS as requested by the dealership I bought the car from. This solved nothing (as there wasn't a technical issue in the first place, but my dealership were trying to convince me it was, as opposed to the flywheel issue which they said didn't exist).

The spanners in the washing machine previously happened intermittently and didn't occur when it was checked out by the franchised dealer. But they said the car needed the gearbox out to check the flywheel as they suspected a fault.

There is a knock every time you start the car still and im guessing this and the spanners sound is related.

Edited by CJ508 on 16/09/2010 at 18:23

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Fri 17 Sep 2010 10:12
Ford Mondeo - 03 Reg 2.0 TDCi 65k Miles - DMF issue, I pay 50%?? - bonzo dog

Hello again CJ. I'm still struggling as you seem to be saying the car has come back from the franchised dealer to your supplying dealer & is still there; you haven't driven it but have started it on a number of occassions & it is unduly (in your oppinion) noisy on starting. If I'm incorrect please let me know. If I'm not then I think you have three choices:

  1. It's a 7 year old, 65k mondeo diesel. It will be noisy on starting. Live with it & hope nothing else goes wrong. If something does go seriously wrong inside 6 months you do have a case against the supplier
  2. As above but accept the 50% contribution
  3. You could have a case as the franchised dealer has said there "may" be a gearbox fault but you would have to stand the cost of diagnosis & if this identified a serious fault THEN you would have cause for rejection

It's a used car, it will have faults. As a consumer champion on the radio & TV once said "a used car is a car that somebody else did not want"

Good luck

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Thu 16 Sep 2010 18:35
Ford Mondeo - 03 Reg 2.0 TDCi 65k Miles - DMF issue, I pay 50%?? - Harry Boy

I was sort of hoping you would suggest that perhaps the Doo-Dah Band needed looking at too..!

Owned a cat, a while back, called Bonzo..strange monkey..pretty funky.

Have a good day ya all...

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Fri 24 Sep 2010 12:07
Ford Mondeo - 03 Reg 2.0 TDCi 65k Miles - DMF issue, I pay 50%?? - ablandy

I disagree with Lucys statement that the car is ostensibly fixed. They say the car needs investigation because they suspect a faulty dmf. There are not "technical faults" presumably because they plug in there computers and theres no fault code.

The problem still exists and I would reject the car and go and find a different one. Mondeos arent exactly rare! The clutch and dmf should last longer that 65k, our 2 tddi mondys needed clutches at approx 100k.

2nd hand cars arent perfect, but it is not acceptable to expect you to pay to repair a fault on a car which was noted before you bought it. Its possible the seller suspected a problem but was hoping it wasnt going to appear until later. Now they are trying to mininise their losses.

Reject it!

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Fri 24 Sep 2010 19:19
Ford Mondeo - 03 Reg 2.0 TDCi 65k Miles - DMF issue, I pay 50%?? - LucyBC

ajblandy may disagree with me but it is a seven year old car which cost £3,000.

The fault (as I said taking into the comments of the OP) is ostensibly fixed.

So the court (as the final arbiter) is not going to permit rejection and refund unless a major ongoing fault can be proven.

To prove the fault is ongoing is likely to mean - at the very least - a detailed engineers report which may (or may not) go in the OP's favour.

To be definitive this requires removal and investigation of the gearbox. Expect this to cost at £400- £600 plus VAT. Then (if challenged) you may have the expense of the court.

The deal on offer is a new clutch/DMF - both of which are wearing parts - for less money than the cost of the report and with no risk.

You could try and talk to the dealer and see if they are willing to take the car back - either refunding or supplying you with another vehicle. Generally the latter offers the better outcome as a reputable trader will offer a good deal to protect their reputation.

But without their agreement, as things stand you have little/no certainty that the courts will support you if you apply to reject the vehicle and ajblandys advice could end up costing you a great deal more money in court fees with no fix at the end of it.

For what it's worth when ajblandys (or any other person's) "Mondys" needed a replacement clutch has no relevance to anything.

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Fri 24 Sep 2010 21:47
Ford Mondeo - 03 Reg 2.0 TDCi 65k Miles - DMF issue, I pay 50%?? - ablandy

Oh dear, from the tone i appear to have offended LucyBC!

The problem I have is that you state the fault is fixed - no one has said its fixed. The OP said the dealer said they suspect flywheels problems - that doesnt sound to me like the problem has been fixed. If the fault was fixed, then I agree with you and there is no reason to reject. But the fault does exist as it has been acknowledged by the supplying dealer by stating that it needs replacing.

Im a bit suprised that the advice is to pay out almost 10% of the value of the car on a repair less than a month after buying it. This fault was obviously there when the car was bought so the OP should not be expected to pay. Maybe rejection is a bit far to go on a second hand car, but certainly the OP should get the dealer to pay everything. It may be 7 years old, but the car was bought from a dealer about a month before. This is why cars are bought from dealers.

I do appreciate that Lucys suggestion has some merit and the easiest way to move forward is to accept the offer. Personally I would push them to pay the whole thing. Lucys advise may well be the sensible thing to do, but it is contrary to most "consumer experts" advise, which I would class HJ as.

And when the clutches were replaced on mine ARE relevant to something, just not necessarily to the OPs situation :)

I should add that i have zero legal training. Lucy does i believe.

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Sat 25 Sep 2010 06:21
Ford Mondeo - 03 Reg 2.0 TDCi 65k Miles - DMF issue, I pay 50%?? - LucyBC

"Lucys advise may well be the sensible thing to do, but it is contrary to most "consumer experts" advise, which I would class HJ as...

I should add that i have zero legal training. Lucy does i believe. "

HJ aims to give practical advice which to resolve real-life practical problems in the motoring sector.

I am a hands-on lawyer dealing with real life motoring consumer cases every day. I am not a media tart "consumer expert" who quotes the Sale of Goods Act without reference or interpretation of decisons previously taken by the courts.

In this case rejecting the vehicle (if opposed) would require the OP to take the case to court on the basis of "suspected problems"

So £80 in court costs just to issue (if he does it himself). If he engages a lawyer (advised) they would probably charge another £250 just to write the claim,

Expect to pay another £300 (if opposed) to take to hearing and a further £400-£600 (possibly more) for an experts report - which will be necessary to prove the case. The potential litigation costs are thus heading for more than £1000 if he uses this route. If he needs to consult a lawyer further and various letters go back and forth it is entirely possible that the legal fees could exceed the total value of the car.

At the moment the OP is in a relatively stong position. The dealer seems to be reputable and probably (and probably justifiably) proud of their reputation so they want to resolve the problem.

The current fix has seemingly resolved the issue (no bag of spanners or clutch problems, noisy on start up but as has been said in other posts from an experienced trader all "Mondy" diesels are noisy on start up).

So the best practical option is thus:

  • to see if the same problem comes back - in which case you reported it within time and will thus be able to reject the vehicle under SoGA; or
  • to negotiate returning the vehicle to the dealer by agreement and accepting another alternative vehicle in its stead; or
  • to pay the 50% cost on the replacement of the clutch and flywheel

which is exactly what I previously advised.

Edited by LucyBC on 25/09/2010 at 06:23

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