This is a follow up to an earlier post regarding VW505.01 oil.
It only applies tdi pd engines that require fixed 10,000 mile servicing - or so I was told.
I spent ages today on the phone to numerous SEAT dealers, VW dealers, SEAT HQ, VW HQ, Castrol and Millers. The bottom line is total confusion everywhere.
I rang 12 SEAT dealers - all but one (I'll come back to which one)said that VW 505.01 must be (and is)used. Half of those said that this oil is only available in fully synthetic form. The others said its available in both synthetic and part-synthetic form. One said it is mineral oil. But, all stressed that VW505.01 MUST be used. The same applied to the 6 VW dealers I rang. All said that they use VAG sourced oil. This includes the SEAT used Quantum brand (I think this is supplied by Castrol). The VW dealers I spoke to use Castrol. Both HQ's confirmed that 505.01 MUST be used. VW said synthetic must be used, SEAT said "don't know".
I also rang Castrol's technical department and spent about 20 mins chatting with a very helpful guy who explained why this oil must be used. Basically, the camshaft driven injector pumps run at an extremely higher pressure on pump dusse TDi engines than they do on the 'older' design TDi's, and therefore require an oil that will offer a far higher degree of sheer(breakdown)resistance. The VW 501.01 (or higher)spec oils offer this and oils that fail to meet this spec must not be used. He even went as far as to say that engines run on non 505.01 spec oil are a time bomb waiting to go off and WILL be damaged (what!!!). He also said that 505.01 is only availble in synthetic form.
Millers now do an oil that meets the 505.01 spec. It's called XFE PD, but strangely, it's part synthetic and retails for about £20.00.
The SEAT dealer who didn't follow suit with the others was the one who's serviced my car (it would be wouldn't it). They told me that in my car (Arosa 1.4 tdi pd)they used Castrol magnatec. I was told I could use 505.01 but it wasn't neccessary. They also said that a leasing company who uses them to service their Alhambra's won't pay the extra cost for 505.01, so magnatec is also used for those as well. As a side note, the price quoted for 505.01 at all the dealers I spoke to was no more than the price my dealer quoted for magnatec.
This evening I went to the dealer where I purchased my car. They are part of the same group as the dealer who originally supplied and serviced it for the first owner. The car was transfered to them for my purchase.(Incidentley, the dealer I purchased the car from uses the correct oil). I spoke to the General Manager and explained the above re. the use of magnatec. He spoke to the service manager at the dealer who's done the servicing to find out what oil had been used. Although he was aware that 505.01 should be used for PD engines he thought that the 1.4 tdi pd was a non pump dusse engine. He checked the engine code which confirmed it was in fact a pd. He then confirmed that magnatec had been used on both the 10k and 20k service. (Great!!).
As a result, these are the options I've been offered:
1.An oil cange to the correct oil and a free 4th year warranty.
2.A full refund of my money.
3.A brand new car, and I pay the difference.
4.Try to locate another used car of same price, age, mileage etc.
Option 4, apparently, is as likely as finding rocking horse s***, as used 1.4 tdi's are very rare. Option 3 will cost me loads, option 2 leaves me with no car and loads of hassle, option one leaves my with doubt and worry (I planned on keeping this car for a few years).
So there you have it. Sorry about the length of this post,but I feel people ought to be aware of the confusion and the importance of making sure the correct oil is used in your car.
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I must confess, that this was one of the reasons why I wasn't too worried about buying the older 110tdi.
The used market for PD Tdis will be a minefield in a couple of years. Although I'm a huge fan of these engines I'm a little confused as to why VW felt that this technology was superior to Common rail.
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Arfur.
I think the the VW TDI PD engines produce more BHP for for any given cc. than any other car manufacturers engines.
Examples
Polo 1.4 tdi 75bhp / 144lbs torque 2200 rpm
Fiesta 1.4 tdci 68bhp / 118lbs torque 2000 rpm
Peugot 1.4 hdi 68bhp / 112lbs torque, 1750 rpm
Alan
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I think the the VW TDI PD engines produce more BHP for for any given cc. than any other car manufacturers engines. Examples Polo 1.4 tdi 75bhp / 144lbs torque 2200 rpm Fiesta 1.4 tdci 68bhp / 118lbs torque 2000 rpm Peugot 1.4 hdi 68bhp / 112lbs torque, 1750 rpm
On the basis of 1.4's only perhaps so however Renaults 100ps 1.5 and Ford/PSA's 110ps 1.6 are much more powerful for their size.
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I stand corrected
The 130 PS Duratorq engine develops more or less the same horsepower as the 1.9-litre, 130 bhp TDI PD engine used in VWs and Audis (PS stands for 'Pfunde Starke', translates as 'horse power', and is now the standard used in Europe. 1 PS is roughly equivalent to 0.99 bhp). Whereas Ford continue to use common-rail technology, VAG have switched to unit injectors, which arguably offer finer control of the injection process.
At first glance, the Duratorq engine appears to be the poor relation, developing only 207 lbs/ft of torque relative to the VW's 228 lbs/ft. But the Ford unit has a unique 'overboost' feature, which briefly increases the torque to 244 lbs/ft under heavy acceleration. In fact, such is the mid-range urge of the Duratorq engine that in intermediate gears it delivers a more satisfying drive than many so-called 'performance' cars and I actually prefer the TDCi to Ford's own V6, petrol-engined variant.
Alan
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At first glance, the Duratorq engine appears to be the poor relation, developing only 207 lbs/ft of torque relative to the VW's 228 lbs/ft. But the Ford unit has a unique 'overboost' feature, which briefly increases the torque to 244 lbs/ft under heavy acceleration. In fact, such is the mid-range urge of the Duratorq engine that in intermediate gears it delivers a more satisfying drive than many so-called 'performance' cars and I actually prefer the TDCi to Ford's own V6, petrol-engined variant.
Hi, In fact the 130ps TDCi produces 330nm torque which is increased to 350nm by the "transient overboost" where as the VW 1.9 PD 130 produces 310 nm with the 5 speed gearbox and 320nm with the 6 speed. It is the 115ps TDCi engine that produces 280nm/207lb/ft.
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PEH: you are not alone! See the thread under this link. www.uk-mkivs.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1909
Financial advice is not my line, but of the options I wouldn't fancy option 1! Option 3 if sold at invoice (this is from US practice, which requires dealers to be transparent about costs) might be worthwhile?
I have a 110hp VW TDI, which should be fairly straightforward, but VW UK are singularly lacking in anyone who can answer a simple question. When I enquired which oil was suitable, I was told "oh, multigrade" They not only haven't a clue, they don't know how abyssal their ignorance is. And when I asked if I could speak to their technical gal/guy, I was told they were not for customers to speak to.
Try looking up 505.01 on the net and you'll see there are a number of alternatives. However, as you may see from the link, Castrol seem to have the ability to explain. try their site. By the way, Audi were clued up when i spoke to their dealership, so I expect it's the usual: pay peanuts, get monkeys.
HJ might like to ask Seat and other VW linked branches, why their support is so lousy?
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List of oils from VW..Sorry about the lack of formatting,cut & pasted!: Bezeichnung SAE-Klasse VW-Norm(en)
AD Parts AD SDI SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Addinol Addinol Light MV 0546 PD SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Agip Agip 7004 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Aral Aral Tronic 431 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Avia Avia Turbo CFE PD SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Bucher AG Motorex Profile V-XL SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Castrol Castrol 505 01 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Castrol Castrol GTD 505 01 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Cepsa Cepsa Star TDI synt SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Chevron Havoline 505.01 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Conqord ROLOIL 505.01 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
DEA DEA Ultec Diesel SYN SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
DEA DEA Viscobil ST SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Delek Israel Delkol IDI SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Denicol Motor Oils Denicol Pro Syn 4 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Elf Elf Excellium DID SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Esso Esso 505 01 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Eurolub (Hunold) Eurolub Synt PDI SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
FL Italia Pulsar Progress SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
FL Italia Selenia Performer SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Fuchs Fuchs Motorenoel G052 167 02 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Fuchs Labo Syntha High Tech Synthese SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Fuchs Motorenoel G 052 167 02 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Fuchs Titan Supersyn SL-F SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Ginouves York 742 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Hunold Hunold Synt PDI SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Igol Igol Process 505.01 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Kuttenkeuler Sorotec Pdi SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Kuwait Petroleum Q8 Motoroil 505.01 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Liqui Moly Liqui Moly Diesel High Tech SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Liqui Moly Liqui Moly Diesel High Tech SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Meguin megol Motorenoel Super Leichtlauf Technology SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Millers Oils Millers XFE-PD SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Mobil Mobil Syst S Special V SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Mobil Mobil TD SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Molyslide Molyslide Formula L2 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Motul Motul 6100 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Oest Mineralölwerk Oest Leichtlauföl 505.01 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
PAZ Champion Oil 50501 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Pentosin Pentosynth 5W-40 TS* SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Petrogal Galp Formula 505 Extra SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Ravensberger Schmierstoffvertrieb Ravenol VPD SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Repsol Repsol Elite 505.01 TDI SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Rowe Rowe Synth PD SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Shell Shell 505.01 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Slovnaft Madit 505 01 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Sonol Sonol Synt 505.01 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Statoil Statoil Superway SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Sun Oil Sunoco Ultra semi synth. SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Suomen Petrooli OY Teboil Diamond SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
SWD swd Primus Synth. SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Tamoil Sint Future Extra SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
TD Lubrifiants AVIA TDi 505.01 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Teboil Teboil Diamond Diesel SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Total Total Quartz 505.01 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Unil Opal Unil Opal Opaljet 505.01 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Valvoline Diesel Turbo motot oil SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Valvoline High Performance Diesel motor oil SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Valvoline Valvoline Diesel Turbo Motor Oil SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Valvoline Valvoline High Performance Diesel Motor Oil SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Vaps Vapsoil PD 540 Spezial SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Veedol Veedol 505 01 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Westfalen AG Westfalen Megatron SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Wolf Wolf Masterlube Synflow PI SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Würth Würth Triathlon Special PD SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Yacco Yacco Spéciale SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Yacco Yacco VX 505 Diesel SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
Zeller+Gmelin Divinol Syntholight 505.01 SAE 5W-40 50000/50500/50501
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Where specifically did you get your information? I went to the VW website but could'nt find this info. Also, I was curious if Amsoil has an oil that meets the 505 01 specs?
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3 might be work pursuing, you might be able to negotiate a great cost-to-change.
When the Audi A3 was new, my dad bought a 6-month old ex-audi car. We were never quite sure what had been it's background, but it may have been a demo of some kind. To cut the story very short, it kept stopping, so the dealer took it in and gave Dad a courtesy car. This happened a couple of times and the dealer failed to trace the fault.
The final time of it going into the dealer, Dad passed the Dealer Manager a polite but firm letter stating that he would not be returning the courtesy car until they guaranteed his car was fit and well.
The dealer decided a new wiring loom was required. This took the predictable couple of months to arrive, but even when it was fitted, the car still stopped randomly. After many convesations between the dealer and Audi head office, they decided to offer my Dad a brand new replacement car to the same spec if he waited for it to be built, returned the courtesy car (A4)and paid them £1000.
Needless to say we were pretty impressed with the offer, and accepted.
Sorry this is long-winded, but might encourage you to think about option 3
Good luck!
Andy
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There is clearly one specific component in the PD engine which is heavily loaded - the cam drive mechanism for the individual injector pumps. The loading, combined with the service intervals, is such that VW are very concerned that owners use the correct oil. I'm not aware that there are any other basic differences in a PD engine that need specific oil.
Now we all know that oil deteriorates in use, and this particular item would appear to be the first component to suffer from degraded oil. I'd therefore be very wary of a s/h PD engined car that had a flakey service record, especially if it had over run oil change mileage intervals.
However, we seem to have gone from one specific VW oil that meets the new standard to a whole host of oils that do. Why? I doubt there's been huge reformulation, or a huge step forward in oil technology to lubricate these engines. If there was I'd be even more worried! I suspect it's because it takes time for the oil manufacturers to carry out the tests and certify the product. I imagine many of these oils already met or were very close to the new spec., but they hadn't been tested. The issue is resistance to shear, which is what makes most multigrade oils deteriorate. Given the 5-40 range I'd guess these are all synthetic oils, which will tend to have better resistance to shear and therefore longer service life.
It's difficult to tell from the list, but the Magnatec (semi-synthetic?) your car has run on doesn't seem to be there, and I doubt it's a 5-40 oil. I suspect the low cold viscosity (5) is needed to ensure rapid lubrication of the pump drive cams. So, some risk there. On the positive side it's not a poor quality oil, could be very close to the required spec. and it's been changed at the recommended intervals, and the big issue here seems to be oil life. Not an ideal situation, and I'd have been happier if the oil change intervals had been halved, but from what you say about the problems of changing the car I reckon your best option is the oil change plus the extra warranty. As another 'extra', given that the potential wear area is known, why not ask for an inspection of the condition of the cam drive to the pumps to ensure it hasn't suffered? I assume it's not a particularly inaccessible component, being in the head? After all, they have not serviced the car to the makers spec. have they?
Regards
John S
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The list that I have posted is from official VW info, & covers all countries / markets. Any oil not on the list is NOT suitable for use in engines requiring oils to VW specifications. The information is up to date, being updated, along with other data, not posted, on a monthly basis via CD Rom.
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As a follow up to last nights post, I have agreed with the dealer to exchange the Arosa for another which is 14 months newer, with a mileage of 6000. The mileage being important as its still on the original factory oil, which allows me to control (as far as possible) what oils goes in it. The cost to change is £500 which I thought reasonable as I'm geting a car with 16000 fewer miles and is 14 months younger.
The dealer didn't have this car in stock and didn't hold out much hope of finding a replacement, so I browsed the used cars on SEAT's website found one that suited and told the dealer about it and subsequently they've arranged for a dealer transfer. Hopefully the matter will be sorted shortly.
One question though - what will happen to my old Arosa? I think we all know........
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"One question though - what will happen to my old Arosa? I think we all know"
One careful owner, full SEAT servcie history, etc..
remind me never ever to buy a s/h diesel 130hp Audi/VW/SEAT/Skoda....
madf
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I pitty the poor Soul who gets your old car.
One way of making sure the correct oil is used is to supply your own oil to the dealer, assuming he doesnt just swipe your container and use his own bulk oil.
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All VW group TDI PD engines
1 year or 10.000 mile service which ever is soonest (the so called extended service).
505.01 semi synthetic.
2 years or 30.000 miles service which ever is soonest ( the so called variable service ).
506.01 fully synthetic.
This is from memory but I am pretty certain it is correct.
Alan
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Perhaps a more likely explanation is that any synthetic diesel oil meeting the viscocity spec in the Haynes Manual will do. I'd suggest that VAG charge an awful lot to 'approve' oil and allow the seller to put the VAG spec on the can - hence many oil distributors are not prepared to pay.
Unless someone would like to get scientific and explain which property of oil apart from it's viscocity makes a difference? There's an alarming lack of scientific discussion in this debate - people saying 'it will damage components' with no back-up. How will it damage these components? What do the 505.01 oils have that others do not?
Though with the uncertainty I'm pleased that mine's a non-PD 110...
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Perhaps a more likely explanation is that any synthetic diesel oil meeting the viscocity spec in the Haynes Manual will do. I'd suggest that VAG charge an awful lot to 'approve' oil and allow the seller to put the VAG spec on the can - hence many oil distributors are not prepared to pay. Unless someone would like to get scientific and explain which property of oil apart from it's viscocity makes a difference? There's an alarming lack of scientific discussion in this debate - people saying 'it will damage components' with no back-up. How will it damage these components? What do the 505.01 oils have that others do not? Though with the uncertainty I'm pleased that mine's a non-PD 110...
Film strength is the key to this (i.e the oil having an affinity for the metal and maintaining a film even at high pressure - i.e. keeping the metal apart). Viscosity is a secondary consideration (try using axle grease!).
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If you look at the list of 505.01 oils, all the major manufacturers are there. There are 70 different oils with 505.01 approval. If the Bardahl saga is anything to go by (see Freds) VW charge a couple of thousand dollars for testing initially. Peanuts. Property that makes a difference is the HT/HS value. The technology is available, after some extensive work (its claimed) by Castrol and VW, hence the 505.01 requirement. Some oil manufacturers including Lubri-Moly and Castrol have explained the wear issue on the cams driving the PD mechanism. Exactly what's in the oil is presumably a commercially-confidential matter - but from the information already made available (on HJ for instance) its not a marketing ploy. Failure to use the correct oil in a PD will cause wear, as well as void the warranty. You could be lucky, by choosing another oil certification regime, but the message seems to be that API are behind the curve on this, as their "standards" are generic, and not driven by engine manufacturers requirements. For diesel, API C ratings apply only to truck engines, not car engines. Despite the "heavy-duty" truck oil image, trucks probably have an easier time!
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Like everyone else I'm thoroughly fed up and confused over this debate about VW pdi oils. I've religously used 505.01 Valvoline and Millers oils in 5 VAG pdi cars over the last few years. However, has anyone, anywhere, a record of engine problems caused by the use of the wrong spec oil in these cars?
The only good thing about all this is that it's now possible to buy 505.01 oils at 'sensible' prices. In the early days of pdi engines you had to buy it at a VAG dealer at about £9 litre.
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