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How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - alan kearn

Exceptional circumstances ? Not to change a cambelt yet.
THE background of the car

I have a 2002 VW Polo 1.4 tdi pd that I bought new, the car has only done 14,300 miles.
At 4 years old and 10,000 miles the cambelt and tensioner were replaced as per "1a test VW recommendations" (whatever that means) by the local VW main dealer at a cost of £348.
The car is now 8 years old and only 4,000 miles on from the last cambelt change and it is according to VW 4 years or 40,000 mile recommendations, ready for another replacement.
Before someone tells me to sell it because I dont use it enough the car is worth far,far more to me than the price a 8 year old car would fetch.There is not a scuff mark on anywhere it is almost in the condition it came out of the showroom when first bought.
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The reason for not changing the belt for another year and the 1,000 miles or so that it will do in that time.

I am quite prepared to spend the £400 or so that the new cambelt change would cost at present but as I am 77 years old and I am not sure how long I will be driving and I want to avoid if I can paying for another cambelt change in the future so I am thinking of stretching out the recommended replacement intervals.If over the next five or six years I can manage on one more cambelt replacement i would then be able if needed run the car into the ground
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THE reasons why I think it would probably be safe to do so.

Yes I do know age determines the life of a cambelt but stress must also be a massive factor on what that age is.I think the most stress on a cambelt is when the engine is started in my case the car is used on average once a week so the collective stress factor level on the belt would be far less than a car used every day.
It is only 4 years and 4,000 miles since the last cambelt change so there carn't be much of a wear factor on the parts.
The cambelt in my engine was designed for a heavier workload ,my engine is the VW 3 cylinder 1.4 tdi pd 70 bhp engine, the same cambelt is used for the VW 4 cylinder 1.9 tdi pd 150 bhp engine so I would say there is a 25% overkill factor .
The car is use on average once a week so not much startup stress.
Don't suppose this will make any difference, the car is kept in a garage
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I understand there has to be guidelines but am I being foolish in thinking why if,
Two identical VWs had their cambelts changed on the same day 4 years ago one has the above details the other has been out every day and clocked up 40,000 miles they need the same treatment at the same time.

Opinions greatfully recieved

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - oilrag

Hi Alan, I`ll give a different angle on it to what you were likely expecting. Are you a `worrier` will it be on your mind for the next year or so - (If you extend the interval) every time you start the engine and are driving it.

You know - `every third thought, is of the cambelt` - If so, peace of mind is priceless.

I suppose you could do a graph and plot rising anxiety against time and mileage.

Hey! I`m writing about myself ;-)

All the best with your decision.

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - corax

I would get the cambelt changed for peace of mind. OK the car has only done 4000 miles but aging of components has to be considered, not just mileage. Better than a replacement cylinder head if the cambelt snaps and the valves hit the pistons.

But find a good specialist or indie and have it done there. £348 seems a bit steep.

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - b308

I've just bought a 1.4 petrol Clio... only 36k since new and the previous owner hadn't got a clue if the belt has ever been changed! For the sake of a couple of hundred quid I got it changed... I'd rather that than have to fork out considerably more on a replacement engine...

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - WellKnownSid
The cambelt in my engine was designed for a heavier workload ,my engine is the VW 3 cylinder 1.4 tdi pd 70 bhp engine, the same cambelt is used for the VW 4 cylinder 1.9 tdi pd 150 bhp engine so I would say there is a 25% overkill factor .

Not sure if it's that simple. The 3 cylinder will not run as smoothly as the 4 - so will place different stresses on the teeth (I have seen this observed by people that have replaced a dual mass flywheel with a solid one - increase in vibration resulting in feathering of the edges of the belt teeth).

I would also say that your usage pattern is outside the 'norm' - and that's not necessarily a good thing.

If it were my car, given the condition, I would spend the money and get it done.

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - Cheeky

Yes indeed. I agree with all of the above. Whilst your usage may be 'light' in mileage terms, I would gather much of the car's duties are stop/start town driving etc. Therefore, the engine is still stressed, but in a different way to high mile examples. I would take it to a reputable independent garage, VW specialist, or back street guru who knows his onions (or cambelts....!) and ask them to do the honours. That way, you won't be paying £100+ an hour labour as the main dealers will charge. Frequent oil and filter changes would also be recommended. Good luck with it all.

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - 659FBE
I'm going to stick my head above the parapet and suggest that you leave the belt alone - provided the belt last fitted was to OE specification (Continental), all rollers in contact with the belt were changed (this includes the water pump) and that it was fitted correctly.

I have a 1.9 PD (AWX) and decided that, based on the fact that the "4 year rule" seems to have been dreamed up in M-K and applies nowhere else in the world, and also that the belt installation is generously engineered for its duty - I would ignore it. Not so foolhardy as it may seem given that the printed service book supplied with the vehicle makes no mention of a time limitation.

So I put my money where my mouth is and I have in fact just changed the belt and all associated rollers after nearly 6 years in operation. I used to test engines for a living and have seen a good number of belt drive systems.

My findings following a careful examination are as follows:

OE belt (Contitech) - no observed wear or defects. Very little elongation.

Tensioner (Litens) - no observed wear or defects. Very high quality Japanese bearings fitted to this component - tested on other jobs and unlikely to fail.

Roller (INA) - some evidence of lubricant loss probably caused by the insane operating speeds. In view of the light loading, fit for further duty - but much the weakest point in the design.

Water Pump (OE) - no observed wear or defects and no leakage. Plastic impeller is a known weakness, so replaced with pattern type fitted with metal impeller.

Conclusions:

The drive is fit for purpose as specified in the service book. A 4 year change interval has no relevance and is probably a UK generated revenue earning scam. The weakest component in the PD drive is the tiny guide roller below the tensioner. The OE water pumps are a known weakness.

My strategy:

To leave the next belt assembly in operation for 60k miles. To check the small roller bearing for noisy operation using a stethoscope (it is accessible from the top by removing the clip-on upper cover) at regular intervals beyond 40k miles.

My views only - for information only.

659.
How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - Marc

Hi Alan. Sounds like a very nice, well looked after, car you have there.

If I were you I would seek out a reputable VAG specialist or trusty independent and get their opinion based on your usage and servicing to date. In my experience the main dealer service receptionists virtually read off autocue (well a PC screen actually) in terms of what the car "should have" done as opposed to what is actually needed.

659FBE's comments certainly make interesting reading also.

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - Cheeky

Marc has hit the nail bang on there. Main dealer agents (unless you know the mechanic personally.....) in my opinion simply read off directives and don't give independent advice. Just try going to one with a 'sealed for life' auto transmission and ask for an oil change. 'Sealed for life sir, no problems' -- yes, all very well, until it goes bang and leaves you with a huge bill.

Good local garage or VAG independent all the way.

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - Diamond

I would've thought that the first change at 4 years was unnecessary but it was done anyway. I don't think you have anything to worry about here, it should be good for at least another 40000 miles or more and say another 6 or so years.

Too much is made of 'recommended intervals' and too little of common sense.

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - b308

Which would you rather have?

A bill for £200 for a cambelt change... or

One for £x000 for a new engine?

OK I take your point that there is a built in "safety factor"... but...

1. Do you know if it applies to YOUR car... and

2. Are you prepared to risk it??

Edited by b308 on 15/04/2010 at 22:06

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - b308

I'm sure "4" years has been around a lot longer than that HJ... and not just for VAG cars... Cambelts have always been a contentious issue ever since they were invented, and each manufacturer seems to have their own rules on when they should be replaced...

Though I'd expect a manufacturer to err on the side of safety... less comeback for them that way!

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - craig-pd130

In support of 659's posting, some time ago I discovered that the cambelt change interval for the PD diesel engines in US-market VWs is 100,000 miles, with no time limit specified.

Because this covers Passats, Golfs and Boras, which are produced in different factories around the world, it doesn't make sense that US-market cars would get a special "heavy duty" cambelt that would enable a longer service interval compared with UK or European cars.

My 10p worth -- leave it.

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - dimebar123

hi,i replace parts ect on my own cars,and have done many timing belts over the years. (20 years in trade) one thing to remember is that a timing belt when fitted is acted upon by a tensioner,this puts a strong strain on the belt to keep it taught,as you would expect.i would think about this when thinking about replacement,as even on a very low milage car the belt will have spent a long time tensioned(a few years?),i would swop it without hesitation.if you want to save money a local truted garage should be able to do it a fair price.fit only best quality parts from dealer,or trusted supplier,no cheap parts.regards

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - 659FBE

Although I'm satisfied that I understand the strengths, limitations and smoke-screens associated with VAG and their timing drives, I have a few further thoughts and observations:

HJ is quite correct in his comments concerning plastic tensioner wheels. Often made by FAG, these parts almost invariably fail before the belt lets go, with dry and loose bearings. To the best of my knowledge, plastic tensioner wheels were only ever fitted to petrol engines - all the diesels use metal wheels.

With reference to the above post, the static tension provided by the tensioner wheel is a small fraction of the running tension. The need for good quality parts is very evident and should be carefully considered before purchasing replacement parts. In my case, all parts provided in the Contitech belt kit were of exactly the same manufacture as the originals.

If the time limitation were down to degradation of the rubber in the belt, we have a few inconsistencies. There are only a few belt suppliers and most of them supply belts to most vehicle makers. Some of these vehicle makers "allow" a 10 year period for a belt to remain in operation. If the time in service were as short as 4 years, the belts and packaging would need to be date coded, with a "use by" date to guarantee satisfactory longevity.

Nobody does this of course, and it's a nonsense.

So, I'll stick to my theory of a VAG scam, but HJ's comments concerning the plastic tensioner are absolutely valid - they're rubbish. M-K obviously saw a 4 year blanket replacement scheme as a potential gold mine (probably after being hacked off by the introduction of variable servicing, which robbed the dealers of revenue) and just couldn't resist introducing it.

It's a clever scheme, because it doesn't affect the fleet market who will trade after 3 years or cover the mileage anyway. It targets the "worried" private owner and catches them just before the point at which their pride and joy would be relinquished to the independent sector for all future work. There's still just enough "dealer knows best" loyalty left at 4 years for this scheme to work.

For me, on a PD diesel 6 years or 60k miles will do fine - and I'd be happy to let it go over the mileage quite a bit if changing it didn't suit me at the time.

659.

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - alan kearn

659

Having owned a food shop for 22 years this is something that I thought about

The life of a cambelt puzzle me because when you buy one you cannt possibly know how long it has been in the dealers parts bin, for all I know they could order 10 more cambelts when their stock gets down to two or three, then when the 10 new cambelts arrive are thrown on top of the ones that are left in the parts bin. this is something that could happen any number of times before the bottom ones are sold/used.

Maybe I should be more worried about buying a new cambelt (it could have been in the dealers parts bin for five years) than the one that is already fitted.

LOL

L

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - alan kearn

This is how the first line of my previous post should have read

Having owned a food shop for 22 years and knowing about use by and best before dates I thought about that

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - john farrar

I've just carefullyexamined the just replaced cambelt from my step daughter's Peugeot 206 which was 40,000miles/10years old.It was almost as good as new, no cracks, hardening with very few signs of wear.

I'm with 659 on this one.

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - oilrag

Not a cambelt - but a Poly V belt on the 1.3 Multijet fitted to my Punto.

It`s on an automatic tensioner - so that rules out different tensions, but the original was badly cracked all around the internal area, at 2.5 yrs. I replaced it with an original belt (same part no) from Fiat and it`s showing not one crack a further 2 yrs on.

Same mileage at around 16,000 miles. It spent the first 6 months of it`s life sitting on a runway somewhere during the Summer 05. That accounts for the extra 6 months on the first 2.5 yrs.

The original was hard unsupple and cracked it looked like it had done 100,000 miles. It`s replacement looks supple and new on the internal ribbing - despite a very similar mileage and actual time on the road.

Edited by oilrag on 16/04/2010 at 22:06

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - 659FBE

Without in any way attempting to start a "FIAT bashing" thread, as a former FIAT owner I was somewhat dismayed by their seemingly complete lack of organisation. In fairness, my involvement with FIAT was some time ago and the situation may have changed.

OE parts for cars need to be evaluated carefully by the vehicle builder for suitability before being approved and given a part number. Very few belt makers have VAG type approval for use on their engines - obviously Continental do, which is why I chose this make for replacement purposes. On my particular engine, the original belt was also made by them.

In FIAT's case, I found that fast moving parts - belts, filters etc. were seemingly randomly sourced, often from Third World countries. My feelings at the time (which was some time ago - never again) were that FIAT had no interest whatever in aftermarket quality and would put their part number on any component which fitted.

I hope my findings made at that time are no longer valid - otherwise FIAT will have problems, although as it is, their UK market share is not high. Quite possibly your second belt was of much higher quality than the first.

659.

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - John F

I've incurred disapproval here in the past with my advice to leave well alone. Nice to see some of the experts suggesting you leave it. HJ is right - my jockey wheel whined at about 140,000 on our old Passat 2.0 GL petrol - it was easy to change it and leave the apparently perfect original belt in situ. It went on to do 240,000 with no problem. I only changed my older Passat GL5 at 130,000 because the water pump failed. I never changed the original on an Audi 100 [140,000] and currently Focus [11yrs, 66,000] or A6 [104,000].

Just have a look and a listen to it.....if it looks and sounds alright it probably is! I squirt mine with a 40yr old can of belt dressing occasionally.

Remember, it's actually risky to change a cambelt! There are many stories of cambelt failures a few thousand miles after a change. Three reasons come to mind....cack-handed procedure, inferior replacement product, failure of unreplaced pulleys.

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - oilrag

On allegedly non genuine Fiat Parts.

Interesting, that 659 - because I changed the oil filter on the Punto Multijet the other week.

i still have the invoice and it says `73500049 oil filter Purflux` (but it`s not got the defining double folded pleat)

Before, I`ve always had the distinctive `convoluted` pleat (double folded) genuine filters in the Fiat part box - but this time it was a straight pleat filter. now it just happens that i took a picture of that before fitting it - but didn`t realise it`s difference until after it was fitted by reviewing the photo.

They also fitted a `straight pleat` filter three years ago when I let them do the warranty service - not like the original Purflux filter fitted as new as I changed it early on.

Now it seems parts are selling these straight pleated filters as OE (are they? how do you define it )-- but if I go twenty miles to the next Fiat dealer they supply the original double pleated Purflux job.

it will be out in 6 months anyway and I will get a supply of the Purlux jobs next time I`m over near the other dealer.

But does it matter? Perhaps I`m too fussy ;-)

This is not a Purflux though, is it?

picasaweb.google.com/spamtrap362/DropBox#

Edited by oilrag on 17/04/2010 at 19:31

How big a risk not to change a cambelt yet ? - Cliff Pope

Do it yourself - the belt probably only costs about £20.