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My Mondeo estate is eight years old and has the thick end of 200 thousand miles under its belt. Pompously enough I can honestly say it looks, drives and feels almost brand new. Bodywork is more or less perfect apart from a couple of touched up stone chips on the bonnet. No visible signs of rust and the paintwork is still glossy despite very rare waxings. It does get mainly only handwashed with a "turtle" brand shampoo but does occasionally go through a car wash when laziness prevails. The leather upholstery is in excellent condition. No rattles or squeaks on the move and everything works as intended. It has not been especially mollycoddled and has never been garaged. Most weekends it is driven up rough forest tracks to reach suitable mountain biking locations and has spent most of its life as a load lugging working hack. It may of course all disintegrate this year but so far so good. I think most cars can take a lot more than they used to with a bit of care.
Edited by Humph Backbridge on 30/01/2010 at 14:21
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My VW Bora is just over 10 years old, its bodywork still gleams and its reliability has proved as good as expected; it still, in fact, has almost two years of its original bodywork warranty to go.....
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I've just been buying in the 12/15 year old catagory recently and was surprised just how well many of them have stood up to the age... But I would endorse what others have said, it does seem to be how well they've been looked after... I've just got a '95 Clio Auto and the inside is imaculate and the outside only has a couple of rust patches... Two lady owners from new (yes, really!) and 38k miles...
Edited by b308 on 30/01/2010 at 14:34
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Longevity has always been a Volvo USP
ISTR a survey in 1989 (when G registrations were current) announcing that new Volvos had the longest life expectancy of any contemporary manufacturer - the expected lifespan was (I think) 20.6 years. There are certainly plenty of G-reg and older Volvos still on the roads today.
Edited by Dave_TD {P} on 30/01/2010 at 15:03
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Of course, some marques that were renowned for longevity have given up the mantle - Mercedes, for example. Used to go for ever, but about 15 years ago the accountants got hold of them, and they've suffered badly.
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Rather than continue with this circular argument about which cars last the longest, it would be very helpful if someone could find Auto Express's survey from a few years ago to find the most / least scrapped old cars.
I seem to recall, and the only concrete source I can find is one from The Sun's website, that the 1983 Nissan Micra was, at the time (2006), the least-scrapped car of its era, with 28% of the 340,000 cars sold still on the road at that time.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it, all you Jap car knockers.
It always pays to deal with facts rather than conjecture, don't you think?
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I personally wouldn't really consider an older Japanese car - just too many stories of horrendous spare parts prices when something does go wrong. Some have made the point about the Japanese scrappage point (about 7 years?) & 'shaken' (not stirred) test - it makes sense from the cost vs. engineering durability balance they should then build cars that give little trouble for 7 years then go kaput.
I wonder if the KIA (although not quite Japanese) 7-year warranty reflects that in some way.. ?
My point about French cars (maybe excluding Renault..) is that they deteriorate quite rapidly even before 3 years - not in the basic engineering so much, just all the trim/gadgets etc.) - but after that seem to reach a plateau of scruffy durability for many more.
Edited by woodbines on 30/01/2010 at 16:40
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"announcing that new Volvos had the longest life expectancy of any contemporary manufacturer "
I would personally have thought Land Rover might have beaten that. I did read that there are more old Landies about than any other manufacturer.
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I personally wouldn't really consider an older Japanese car - just too many stories of horrendous spare parts prices when something does go wrong. Some have made the point about the Japanese scrappage point (about 7 years?) & 'shaken' (not stirred) test - it makes sense from the cost vs. engineering durability balance they should then build cars that give little trouble for 7 years then go kaput.
Gets provided with the truth and still spouts the prejudice. Way to go.
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In terms of bodywork and interior, in my experience, VWs are still like new after 7 years.
We have a Golf and Passat, both 15 years old. The Golf has never had any welding, the Passat had a minor patch a couple of years ago. These cars are nearing the ends of their lives now, though.
QUOTE:...."I would personally have thought Land Rover might have beaten that. I did read that there are more old Landies about than any other manufacturer.""
- but that's because you can replace all the bits fairly easily or even have them all transferred to a brand new chassis when the old one rusts through!
Edited by Sofa Spud on 30/01/2010 at 16:56
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Wife's 1998 Corolla is still going well with its new owner. In the time we had it (1998 new to 2008, it needed a new battery - because when it was 7 years old she sat with the lights on and flattened it, I think - and new exhaust. The garage ordered the wrong one, so they patched the old one and said it should last a few months. Three years later, when it went to new owner, the exhaust was still fine.
So, a good car to start off with and a good garage. Got no TLC from me, I can tell you: only opened the bonnet to add washer fluid.
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Sorry, meant to be a link but it didn't work.
Edited by Sofa Spud on 30/01/2010 at 17:05
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"VWs are still like new after 7 years.
We have a Golf and Passat, both 15 years old. The Golf has never had any welding"
Mk3 Golfs are often rotboxes - I scrapped one with terminal underside rust - look great above, though.
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"VWs are still like new after 7 years. We have a Golf and Passat both 15 years old. The Golf has never had any welding"
my father-laws previous Passat estate which he had from new started rotting around the windscreen after seven years. Fortunately his current one he has had is in mint condition after six years.
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My Seat Toledo TdiSE 1.9 110 bhp I bought new towards the end of 1999. It now has done well over 177,000 miles and still goes and looks superb. I have to leave it out in all weather. I have never had such a reliable car. In dark "Indigo" blue it looks beautiful when I polish it with Auytoglym super resin polish and use"Wonderwheels" alloy cleaner on the wheels.
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>>Gets provided with the truth and still spouts the prejudice. Way to go.
What truth is that then - some story about 1980s Micras?? Not sure that's got very much relevance to contemporary concerns. You could just as well quote stories about 30 Mercedes/70 year old Rolls-Royces still going strong, or the fact that nearly half of all Land Rovers ever built are still going. Specious factoids to back up specious arguments all of them - not the 'way to go' imho.
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The Micra story is all the more impressive given it was allegedly built as a disposable car with a 5 year design life. I borrowed a 17 year old one when my car was off the road a few years back, and it was still a lot better than the much younger bangers of my youth.
The idea that it's possible to design a car to be twice as reliable as average for 7 years then fall apart is laughable, even if there wasn't such a wide range of usage.
Mrs Dugong's Civic is 8 years old now - battle scarred but as good as ever, no rust and not a single problem in all that time. (I think think the accelerator cable sticks but she disagrees so that doesn't count as a fault!)
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What truth is that then - some story about 1980s Micras??
The question is "which cars don't deteriorate badly after 7 years".
This distills to, "which cars last the longest".
The answer to the question in 2006, according to AE, was the Nissan Micra.
QED.
If your answer to that is "well Japanese cars have expensive parts, blah blah" then that is pure, unmitigated prejudice. Pure and simple.
Point to any FACT that states that more VWs etc last longer than anything else -- in percentage terms, not some straw poll of what you see on your street.
The idea that it's possible to design a car to be twice as reliable as average for 7 years then fall apart is laughable, even if there wasn't such a wide range of usage.
Precisely.
In fact if this were what the Japanese were doing, then they would truly be the gods of design. To engineer something to such exacting standards that a given part was virtually guaranteed to last 7 years, but no more, would take precision to ridiculous levels.
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In my admittedly "layman's" opinion there are three major contributory factors to longevity. Years, usage and care. A car used carefully and sparingly with good care will stand a good chance of a long life. A car heavily used but on mainly long motorway journeys combined with good care will also tend to last well. A car which is used mainly for short urban journeys and which receives limited care will do worse.
Possibly, one of the reasons why Nissan Micras, for example, score so well is the typical usage they get. Often favoured for light usage by older drivers who will not tend to rag them and who come from a generation when looking after the car was a very good idea. That is not to take anything away from their, again possibly, inherent reliability but it might be just a little bit blinkered to compare the average stats for vehicles which tend to be favoured as workhorses with those which find themselves more often in the role of light usage pensioner runabouts.
Bottom line is, cars generally carry time better now but when they do fail they are remarkably expensive to fix. We hear much about expensive items such as DMFs and turbos etc. Probably worth bearing in mind that within living memory, any car which survived beyond 100k or ten years was remarkable. There are now thousands of vehicles which achieve those milestones faultlessly.
Certain brands and types are typically bought as workhorses. Many of those perform their tasks over the years and miles without fuss. The ones which don't, can fail expensively and by the very nature of the human appetite for tales of woe come more readily to our attention than the ones which simply and unremarkably do what they were bought for.
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Possibly one of the reasons why Nissan Micras for example score so well is the typical usage they get. Often favoured for light usage by older drivers who will not tend to rag them and who come from a generation when looking after the car was a very good idea.
Oh right, so now it's down to being driven by pensioners. Keep em coming lads, it's all very entertaining.
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You seem very keen to fight. I wasn't even arguing with you, merely opening the discussion a little wider. Perhaps things are not always black and white is all.
Anyway, as the younger generation unfortunately say....whatever.
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You seem very keen to fight. I wasn't even arguing with you merely opening the discussion a little wider. Perhaps things are not always black and white is all.
I apologise, your comments are of a voice of reason. I am finding, in general, an insistence to quote anecdotes most amusing in general.
It is exposing for all to see the prejudices of people on this forum. Presented with an unarguable fact, they continue to quote anecdotes.
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to find the most / least scrapped old cars.I seem to recall and the only concrete source I can find is one from The Sun's website that the 1983 Nissan Micra was at the time (2006) the least-scrapped car of its era with 28% of the 340 000 cars sold still on the road at that time.
Did they make the micra on a Y / A plate?
Put that in your pipe and smoke it all you Jap car knockers. It always pays to deal with facts rather than conjecture don't you think?
A search of ebay reveals very few cars for sale older than 1992
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Did they make the micra on a Y / A plate?
Yes.
A search of ebay reveals very few cars for sale older than 1992
Complete irrelevance -- this is as much a silly straw poll as looking down your street.
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www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?md=273
;o)
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www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?md=273 ;o)
Again, talk to the facts. Just because HJ says it doesn't make it so.
28% of these cars lasted AT LEAST 14 years.
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Again talk to the facts. Just because HJ says it doesn't make it so. 28% of these cars lasted AT LEAST 14 years.
I can't remember the last time I saw a pre 1990 micra
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>> >> Again talk to the facts. Just because HJ says it doesn't make it so. >> >> 28% of these cars lasted AT LEAST 14 years. >> I can't remember the last time I saw a pre 1990 micra
Who cares?
FACTS, my boy, FACTS.
How many Golfs lasted AT LEAST 14 years? What figures do you have to hand?
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>> >> Who cares?FACTS my boy FACTS. How many Golfs lasted AT LEAST 14 years? What figures do you have to hand?
There's a few in the village I live, I broke one via ebay last year, very profitable :o)
My old man had an X plate Nissan Stanza, bro bought it off him, terminal rust at 8 years old.....
There's a couple of G plate micras in the village, both very tidy
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There's a few in the village I live I broke one via ebay last year very profitable :o) My old man had an X plate Nissan Stanza bro bought it off him terminal rust at 8 years old..... There's a couple of G plate micras in the village both very tidy
The problem here is that we're still talking anecdotes.
It really doesn't matter what any of us here think because we're all going to notice the cars we like, and slag off the ones we don't.
I have my doubts that most here would even register an X-plate Stanza if it went past them.
Thus, any opinion based on what we see in the Tesco car park is meaningless.
Facts, based on hard evidence are the only way to answer this question.
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www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?md=273 ;o)
Hilarious. The worst thing that can be said about a car that's been out of production for 15 years is -
"Bad: Very light build and eventually rusts so by 2007 it had become very difficult to find one worth buying."
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>>Did they make the micra on a Y / A plate?
Introduced October 1982.
Quoted from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_March
"In August 2006, the K10 was still receiving credit for its impressive durability. An Auto Express survey revealed that of the 340,000 K10 Micras registered in the UK between 1983 and 1992, 96,000 were still on the road ? nearly 30%, an impressive figure for a car which had been out of production for 14 years. This gave it a far higher rating than the Fiat Uno and the Austin Metro, both of which had dwindled away to less than 3%."
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>>FACTS, my boy, FACTS.
>>How many Golfs lasted AT LEAST 14 years? What figures do you have to hand?
There are still Mk1 Golfs giving sterling service - they're nearly 30 years old. The GTI Mk1 has indeed achieved classic status - an appreciating asset. Not sure you can say that about any of the oddly styled Japanese cars of that era. I regularly see Mk2s in my area - they just never seem to give up the ghost.
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As cars become more computer driven, its more feasiblt that they could have a design life.
Lots of Japanese people believe that Sony are masters at making products which only last to the end of their warranty periods.
eg. pinktentacle.com/2010/01/secret-sony-timer-kills-p.../
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I thought 90s Micras were known to be reliable and cheap to fix.
That would explain why they soldier on - they don't suffer as often from the 'it will cost more to fix than it's worth' breakdown.
Another point in their favour is sensible people tend to like them - they're cute and easy to drive, making them non-threatening and suitable for a wide variety of drivers.
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I regularly see Mk2's in my area
Sometimes it depends on the particular model. Mk2 Golfs were one of the best models VW built, I agree there are plenty still on the road. We had one, the materials used were extremely durable and anti corrosion measures were very thorough. However, how many Mk3's do you see? Nowhere near as good.
I think that the cult surrounding VW's has made it easy to acquire almost anything you need to keep them going at a reasonable price, look at camper vans, you would not see nearly as many on the roads if they didn't have a massive cult following and consequently great spares backup.
You would probably see a lot more 'very' old Japanese cars on the road if there was a massive cheap spares backup service, but I havn't seen it, at least not compared with European cars. Although I'm not doubting they are durable, I know they are, buts it's the cost of running them at a much older age.
It might be cheaper to run them in America or Australia, where they seem to get better value than us.
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look at camper vans, you would not see nearly as many on the roads if they didn't have a massive cult following and consequently great spares backup. <<
It helps that they are still built in South America and are still imported by Danbury Campers in the south of England.
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It helps that they are still built in South America and are still imported by Danbury Campers in the south of England.
Really? I didn't know that. Is this Danbury near Maldon? That's close to me.
Edited by corax on 30/01/2010 at 21:10
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www.danburymotorcaravans.com/
Appears they are in Bristol.
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"It helps that they are still built in South America and are still imported by Danbury Campers"
The Brazilian ones are badly made from poor quality steel and age fast. They are now powered by a 1.4 watercooled engine from the Polo range, an anathema to all camper fans, who treasure the aircooled concept!
Lots of campers have been imported from the USA and Oz, and a few from S Africa.
Edited by oldnotbold on 31/01/2010 at 16:10
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Mk2 Golfs were one of the best models VW built I agree there are plenty still on the road. materials used were extremely durable and anti corrosion measures were very thorough. >> However how many Mk3's do you see? Nowhere near as good.
I'd say the Mk2's and 3's were similar in build quality. Both have rust issues in certain places, but generally very good in this respect compared with their contemporaries (can anyone even remember what a ford Orion looks like? ;) ) The rotten floors mentioned earlier is probably down to cabin water leaks ? one of the few problems that dogged both models...
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Cars that don't depreciate too quickly seem to last better longer, now whether their retaining value is because they are better or because they are for some reason more valuable a more caring approach to ownership is applied is debatable...i know what i mean by the way not as this will make any sense to anyone else..;)
Certain cars value falls quickly when they get to about 5 to 7 years they then become sought by neglectful owners and abused when for example a 5 year old Accord will still be a desirable and relatively expensive car and an owner with an ounce of common will look after his investment.
Cars of 10 years old that still look the business...Lexus, some Honda's, some Subaru's, BMW's, Hyundai coupe's, some Toyota's among a good few more...maybe there's a pattern emerging, the type of buyer when in it's early years.
Don't tell Hump but i see a lot of Mundano's in very good condition.;)
If you go back to 15+ year old cars still good some different makers join the list....Lexus, BMW, MB, large Honda's, large Nissans, large Toyota's, Volvo's, Peugeot's, Mitsubishi, Saab.
It will be interesting in 10 years from now to see which new cars today are still going.
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Don't tell Hump but i see a lot of Mundano's in very good condition.;)
Don't tell anyone GB ! keeps 'em nice and cheap for those who know.......
I suspect there are Mondeos driven by those who were simply given them, Mondeos bought by those who know and care little about cars but have sort of heard they're OK and quite a few being run by those who deeply appreciate function over form and fashion.
Quiet competence, a quality which can be desirable in cars and people among other things of course.
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...who know and care little about cars...
An M-reg Mondy went through the hands of three people at work, at least two of whom would fit that description.
It was the usual mundane story, lots of miles and no significant breakdowns.
The last driver bought it from the company.
The only negative comment was from our fleet manager at the time who was a badge snob, and despite never driving the Mondy, could hold forth at length how rubbish it was in particular, and how rubbish all Mondys were in general.
None of this, we decided, had anything to do with the fact he was desperately trying to knock off the business manager at the local Toyota garage, who was a very fit lass by any measure.
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Fair play to him Iffy...fair play.....
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...Fair play to him Iffy...fair play....
Mmm, perhaps he did have his priorities right after all - I was too close to the situation to see things clearly.
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Don't tell Hump but I see a lot of Mundanos in very good condition ;)
I want to see a new car emporium opened and called 'Humph's Motors', only serviced and looked after in the manner that the great man approves of. Better than an AA inspection in my view,:-)
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Heh heh ! Fair enough I probably deserve that.......
;-)
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Surely the constant upgrading of fuels and lubrication products over the years will also play a role?
Edited by Stuartli on 30/01/2010 at 19:11
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There are still Mk1 Golfs giving sterling service - they're nearly 30 years old.The GTI Mk1 has indeed achieved classic status - an appreciating asset. Not sure you can say that about any of the oddly styled Japanese cars of that era. I regularly see Mk2s in my area - they just never seem to give up the ghost
I suppose it must come down to where you live as I have not seen a MK 1 golf since the eighties and a Mk2 for at least 3 or 4years.
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