Avant and Woodbines made the good point about buying on condition; I would also add the consideration of what good specialist garages are available locally.
If you look at HJ's Car by Car guide, you'll see that every popular model has weaknesses; a garage that can diagnose and fix problems efficiently makes a big difference.
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Most Mercedes built from 1998 to 2004 are suspect for both rust and electronics and mechanics..
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Most Mercedes built from 1998 to 2004 are suspect for both rust and electronics and mechanics..
So is there anything left which would be ok?
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I think it's a myth that VW is so good. What makes them so good? I hear of reliability issues with them a lot. The Polo/Golf do not seem that special when compared to what Ford and Vauxhall has to offer. VW is probably the most unreliable of the German makes. And I would even be brave enough to say BMW is a better buy than MB now, but time shall tell how well today's models last.
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A friend of ours always bought VW from new and had a succession of Golfs. however, after a very unreliable Passat bought new about 5 years ago, he switched to the Toyota Avensis and is much happier. I don't think VW are as reliable as they were, but in buying an older one you are probably buying from the best era.
For the amount you want to spend had you thought of a Nissan Almera ot Mitsub Carisma? Cheap to buy, reliable, but probably more expensive to fix.
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We advertise ourselves as VAG and BMW specialists, so we obviously have seen a lot of these cars over the last 20 years that we have been established. We also see a lot of Fords, Vauxhalls and of course French, Italian and Japanese cars.
I would put things this way:
Japanese cars - very reliable, but when they do go wrong they can be prohibitively expensive to fix and pattern parts can be difficult or impossible to obtain. Recent Nissans are not so good. Some problems with Mazdas. But these are generally good cars.
French, Italian. Mostly unreliable, its rare that we have one in for service that doesnt require significant additional repair work. Recent Fiat Pandas are an exception.
Ford. Averagely reliable, but tend to be worn out after about 5 years (rust and trim wear). They are built for this lifetime. Cheap and nasty components used on some models.
GM. Similar to Ford but a bit longer lasting and some troublesome models (semi autos).
VAG. Averagely reliable. Tend not to rust. Cheap and easily available parts and very good diagnostics. We can probably fix a VAG car cheaper than almost anything else. I have Polo 9N1 track rod in front of me. It cost £8.95. The same part on a small japanese car would probably be over £100. The core drivetrain components are very durable, its the electrical bits that usually go wrong.
BMW/MB. Not a lot of difference between them because they mainly use the same suppliers for major parts.
Common rail diesels can ALL be troublesome, even japanese, mercedes, BMW, we have seen them all with intractible faults. Ditto odd-ball transmissions like semi-autos and CVTs to be avoided on any older car.
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In the main WorkshopTech in my opinion
vag are more reliable because the owners have them serviced regularly (teachers lowe govt officials and company cars etc)
French, Italian. Mostly unreliable ,i would say these are usually bought by private people on a shoestring and its very rare to get a stamped history with them,in fact many have the first pdi stamp then zilch
You say you specialise in german so i think it follows that you wont see bread and butter lower order caes you mention as these once 5 years old tend to go to smaller independants where the perceived repairs will in the eyes of the owner will be cheaper,or they go to a fast fit and have their pants pulled down
japanese stuff some parts can indeed be dear but its all a matter of using more than one factor and playing one off against the other,im sure you dont need to do this as much as me (i stand all parts costs not customers so its my bottom line ) so maybe you mainly use one factor and they abuse their position,mine do up here once they think they have their feet firmly in your door
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Broadly I would agree with you Bellboy. However we use three factors in the main and a couple of non-local boys for specialist stuff, plus TPS. We generally get very good prices. The problem I have is that a lot of japanese parts are simply not available from the factors, they are main dealer only. So your OK with discs, pads, filters but other parts for the less popular jap cars make your hair turn grey, same applies to Korean of course.
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French Italian. Mostly unreliable i would say these are usually bought by private people on a shoestring and its very rare to get a stamped history with them in fact many have the first pdi stamp then zilch
I wonder if that's where they get their perceived unreliability from? Surely any car which isn't properly serviced is more likely to be unreliable. We've owned a few French cars, all main dealer serviced, that have been almost faultless on the reliability front.
You can't tar all 'German cars' with the same brush. Does 'German' include Opel and therefore Vauxhall? Does 'German' include all South African, Mexican, Spanish, East European built German brands? The most unreliable car I've ever owned was an early VW Sharan - I think VWs are no better than average. Conversely the Mercs we've had have been better than average.
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What I don't understand is why VW does not sort out design problems that appeared in the previous models. Door seals leaking, scuttle drains blocking up with leaves, aircon compressors failing (very expensive).
It would be acceptable if they were to contribute 100% to repair work to keep the customer happy, but they don't. I know that the CBCB section on this website has a cheaper fix for the aircon compressor fault, but it shouldn't be necessary. I thought cars were tested for thousands and thousands of miles to show up any problems, but VW obviously didn't find any while testing the MkV Golf.
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As a VAG vehicle owner, my observations would be that on the whole, they are well made in the areas which matter (galvanised bodies, durable engines) but are badly let down in a couple of very important areas.
It seems to be inconceivable to the Teutonic mentality that anyone would not follow the precise mainteneance procedures and use all of the correct special tools.
Of course, in the rest of the World and certainly in the UK, nobody bothers.
By way of an example, in the UK, when a VAG car needs an oil change, the undertray gets ripped off and the fixings lost (damned nuisance) and a strap wrench damages the oil filter cap (haven't got a 14 sided 76mm socket) and the wrong oil is put in (don't understand VAG engineering oil specification numbers - we use 10W-40). And so it goes on for most routine jobs.
The Japanese and the Americans don't make these mistakes - a routine job is just that and can be done without too much risk of damage even by a fast-fit centre.
The other area in which VAG fail to shine is in RHD conversions. My B5.5 clone has the well known water ingress problem which does not afflict LHD cars so much. The bonnet release cable conversion is a real joke - it's basically designed to break the cable, which happens to lots of older vehicles, especially those with stiff catches.
So, with chunks of electronics on the passenger floor getting flooded and a broken bonnet release cable requiring invasive surgery, a 5 year old car can cost a fortune to fix.
However, identifying and addressing the stupidities yourself will generally give rise to a long lasting vehicle.
659.
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659FBE
Agreed. As a BMW E36 owner, I can keep my car going relatively cheaply because I have it serviced at my excellent local garage, I have GSF down the road to supply me with cheaper OEM parts, and there are plenty of breakers to supply me with anything more expensive if needed. The quality of the components is excellent, and the few suspension foibles can be sorted fairly easily.
I had an '86 Audi 90 Quattro which I had no problems with, and an Audi 80 Tdi Estate, which did have problems with engine smoking, but it was an excellent, durable car, I just couldn't find anyone in my area that a clue on how to fix it, although I know now that it probably needed the whole intake system removing and cleaning due to the EGR valve being blocked. The problem I have with Audis is that they will not lower their parts prices on older cars, which makes them difficult to run for the long term. How many older 80's, 100's and coupes do you see on the road now, compared with older VW's and BMW's?
As you say, the japanese get their cars 'just right', although parts prices can be expensive, for example, pair of front brake discs for my BMW, £46, same for my dads ex Honda Accord, £120.
I think german cars are on the whole good quality, but of late they (VW, Mercedes) seem to be failing on the details.
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As I said, I cannot fault our Golf so far in terms of the basic engineering, or its reliability. It starts within half a second of turning the key in all weathers, and goes like the clappers for a 1.9 litre engine, never mind a diesel. It handles pretty well (although with ESP turned off, the chassis struggles with the torque), and is well kitted out (climate, electric sunroof, windows, mirrors, ESP etc etc)
I know it's rough by modern standards, but it's taken several generations of common rail fuel systems to catch up with the PD's incredible punch / response / efficiency compromise, and the PD engine, given the right oil, is widely regarded as the most reliable of the newer generation diesels with a beautifully engineered solution to "fuel as a lubricant" issues that can blight common rails. It's also cheap to service (even original VW parts aren't extortionate, and we don't pay VAG dealer rates), and it still cleans up beautifully even at 7 years and 95,000 miles old.
The only real disappointment is the way the interior rattles and squeaks like my Focus never did.
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Workshop Tech
Would you include the Skoda Octavia's DSG and Tiptronic boxes as unreliable oddballs?
Many thanks
WJ
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As stated go Japanese.
Why bother with German.
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As stated go Japanese. Why bother with German.
Agreed, in the US VW has been the awarded least reliable cars for most the the 90s by JD Power or Consumer Reports and other German makes don't do well either.
One example report
www.wallpaperama.com/forums/which-is-most-reliable...l
Edited by carl_a on 29/12/2009 at 19:05
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Go with Japanese but British Made, or go for a newer Jag - they have proved most reliable.
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Workshop Tech Would you include the Skoda Octavia's DSG and Tiptronic boxes as unreliable oddballs?
DSG's are not something we would entertain repairing and our local autobox expert doesnt toouch them either, we just refer owners with a DSG problem to the main dealer. Any significant repair on an older DSG box is likely to be well into four figures. We know of a couple of TT's that have needed DSG repairs and these seem to consist of a new mechatronic unit at a cost of several £000's including the labour.
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Hi Corax, it was the opposite for my dad and I. I just had new discs on my Carina at its 130,000 mile service - £50. Three times that for my dad's E36 BMW. He may have been ripped off!
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Three times thatfor my dad's E36 BMW. He may have been ripped off!
He was i'm afraid, and such a nice easy car to work on regarding brakes, though the handbrake can require a lot of fiddling with to make and keep good.
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V4 Heaven
Yes thats a shame. He should have gone to GSF or ECP. The ones I bought were good quality Brembo items.
gordonbennet
You're right about the handbrake. Seems to lose efficiency soon after being adjusted pre MOT.
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You're right about the handbrake. Seems to lose efficiency soon after being adjusted pre MOT.
The E46 320 Compact in the family has had new rear discs pads and shoes and still needs adjusting up every few months to keep a competent handbrake, even then it's never had that firm 'bite' that the similar system on MB's usually have.
BM must have updated the system as all the newer models even well used have that solid locked on feel to the handbrake thats almost impossible to maintain with E36 and 46.
Must be linkage related i suppose...the rear brake parts in question were professionally fitted by a man that can, so it's not my bodge thats to blame, and reading BMW forum it's a well known problem.
Still it's a minor inconvenience and like most things on the models in question are fairly easy diy jobs.
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