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If HSWA is being too rigorously interpreted, it is amost certainly by agencies other than the enforcing authorities, who have more important work to do than these strange examples. Serious understaffing at HSE prevents vital inspection and investigation work on genuinely risky businesses such as construction. Perhaps its the managers/insurers of the sites who need training in what is, and what is not, important?
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Well in my line of work there has been a persistent myth that one could not work off a ladder.
at first I took it at face value until a particular job arose that only sensiblly could be done off a ladder
I searched and searched for the appropriate legisation??????
without success.
the H & S website merely ADVISED that if it is a recurrent access issue...... look at other means. cherry pickers etc
and a lot of other very sensible advice.
such as ensuring the ladder was stable and tied off.
and that a risk assessment was conducted.
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However a couple of Christmasses ago a couple of workmen were hurt putting up Christmas lights.
Whilst attempting to travel across a moderately steep cross slope in a hotwired ( or so I was told) warehouse model sissors lift.
Whilst still in the elevated position.
Doh indeed
Edited by dieseldogg on 04/11/2009 at 15:58
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Nothing wrong with the laws;just how they are applied.Safe working conditions are required so if it is safe to do the work with a ladder,it can be done.Now,if you are cynical,you might think that the builder gets a kickback from the scaffolding firm.
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I used to be a safety rep ,employed by Bp Chemicals voluntary.Iwas a jetty operator at the time.Due to Health and Safety compulsary wearing of helmets safety glasses and the culture of safe working practices are now enforced .Now as a coxen working on our mooring boat in the river Humber i have a skipper licence after a difficult training course.(The river Humber takes no prisoners)We moore the big tankers on the jetties can be hairy on a winters night.Yes Health and Safety is inportant.
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Yes Health and Safety is inportant.
Certainly, for work that has obvious and specific risks and dangers. Not for walking down the street or changing tap washers though. That's just makework for halfwits.
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Agree Lud live is a risk and tap washers i can live with:)
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There was a programme on it not so long ago which came to the conclusion that there was nothing inherently wrong with EU H&S, but our interpretation of it was totally OTT. This is bourne out on my many visits to mainland Europe where its clear that they have not been tied up in knots by it and Common Sense prevails...
It was interesting that they interviewed and showed the guys who wrote the leglislation how we were interpreting the law and they couldn't believe it, saying that most of the stuff we do was not necessary and certainly not intended when they wrote the stuff...
Also changing the "blame culture" to one where people are actually expected to exercise some Common Sense may help matters as well...
Edited by b308 on 04/11/2009 at 16:46
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Good point b308 we seem to be so tied with this american culture of blame ,if i bang my head on board its my fault nobody else .This crazy culture of blame is out of hand.
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changing the "blame culture" to one where people are actually expected to exercise some Common Sense
Alas, the change is in the other direction, and it is remorseless in all developed countries. Unless there's a global disaster this will continue because it's built into the political systems of all western countries and increasingly built into the attitudes of individuals.
Of course in the end it will do for the West itself as global bull moose. Those of more practical or utilitarian outlook will take over. Can't say I fancy it much either. But I'll be dead by then.
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If it is safe to do the work with a ladder, it can be done.
But it is possible to fall off any ladder. When does a ladder become hazardous?
A few years ago we needed a cowl fitted to our roof chimney stack. In the old days experienced roof workers would use a ladder up to roof level, and a crawling ladder up the roof itself. Not now - a full scaffold job: over £300 scaffold hire to fit a £40 cowl. Daft. It just means that more relatively simple maintenance jobs become prohibitively expensive.
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So,when you have a new TV aerial,they will have FULL scaffolding??????????
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I think the issue can be pretty much summed up with
1. The ignorance of the person querying the task
2. The perceived knowledge of the person saying that it has to be done this way because of H&S
3. The "cover the backside" mentality of a person in authority not being prepared to put their job on the line by instructing a task in case something wrong happens and they are left exposed.
So we all make assumptions, interpretations and end up in the current mess!
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Current H&S practices have some good points. The main one being that the person carry out the task should make a risk assesment before carrying out the task. This requires a bit of common sense, and the backing of the law when the person doing it says they wont becuase of x danger should be mitigated by y
Its all goes breasts up when you get some tick box hitler with his fresh H&S certificate, no knowledge of the task at hand and therefore no comprehension of the risks involved.
H&S should be left to those who do the job, backed up by education and protection from their employer forcing them to work in an unsafe way.
Simples peeps
Edited by Altea Ego on 04/11/2009 at 18:01
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I recently conducted some risk assessments with 20 of my shop managers. In almost every risk their perception of "Likelihood" was that the risk was Possible and likely to happen at some point.
However when I asked how many of these specific accidents had happened over the last 20 years and noted in accident books, the risks suddenly became unlikely. However everyone's perception was that it was likely!
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Over eager interpretation for the most part. There is nothing in the rules to stop the local H&S rep from doing a verbal assessment for a one off activity, and while the poppy seller is probably returning, a full risk assessment ought to take only a minute to do anyway.
It's actually the things you take for granted are often the worst risks. Staff room kettle being extremely high on the list.
And yes, I do them for work, but it's a minor task albeit serious.
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a full risk assessment ought to take only a minute to do anyway.
I have a son-in-law who is a musician. He has recently started teaching teenage pupils to play drums (apparently hates it, so may not last long). But as he only started doing it recently he had to go through all those checks to make sure he has never murdered, abused or raped a nipper.
He had to pay seventy quid for it.
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Unfortunately, there are many who simply thrive on rules and regulations. Equally regretably there are also many who see no need for them at all. In the middle ground somewhere lies common sense, a much under-utilised skill.
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Where I work we used to change tube lighting ourselves.
Now due to H&S, we have to accumulate enough burned out tubes and get an electrical contractor in to replace. Okay they have ladders. We want to change the things, but guess what, we're not allowed to. It's the bosses that are afraid of litigation.
As has been said ,if you have been trained to assess a situation and handle the kit ,use common sense, you should be allowed to go ahead. If you injure yourself, so be it. Patch up and move on.
And I'm talking about a fire station!
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>>>>Where I work we used to change tube lighting ourselves.
>>>>Now due to H&S, we have to accumulate enough burned out tubes and get an electrical contractor in to replace.
Meanwhile, your workplace is plunged into darkness, and you break your neck tripping over a chair that has not been pushed under a desk properly....
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Lud
That check was a CRB check and you have to one for each organisation you work for. I've done one for the Scouts, but as it is a listed charity, mine was free.
Even here though you get overeager interpretation as the real point is being alone with YP. So as long as the leader, or other CRBed person is there, it's notionally safe but any regular person ought to be checked.
You can apply the rules sensibly, just that not all do!
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Don't get us started on CRB checks - they are not a complete waste of time, but as is well known, one cannot prove a negative, which is what these checks aim to do. The best that can be achieved is (assuming records are accurate) that the person has not been caught before. The real value of the check is that the employer (or whatever it is) can be shown to have jumped through the appropriate hoop.
They are a significant deterrent to keen volunteers in many areas, which is a pity.
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Don't get us started on CRB checks - The real value of the check is that the employer (or whatever it is) can be shown to have jumped through the appropriate hoop. They are a significant deterrent to keen volunteers in many areas which is a pity.
CRB checks are becoming a danger and are a typical example of how warped the original idea can become.
Many folk are now treating the CRB check as being the 'be all and end all'....are are then switching off. Instead of using their radar to guard their kids/ the kids in their care, they're shrugging their shoulders and thinking 'must be o.k. the CRB check has been done'.
Truly evil people won't come up on CRB checks. They'll have assumed false identities. Even mildly evil people can change their names by deed poll and will not come up on any CRB check.
What a farce.
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Even mildly evil people can change their names by deed poll and will not come up on any CRB check. >>
And what about all the millions of new citizens who were born abroad, some from countries where birth records do not exist - let alone criminal records. CRB checks are useless in those cases.
Getting back to the OP, the HSE are trying hard to educate the jobsworths that H&S does not ban conkers, hanging baskets, or what have you. Some of their cartoons here:
www.hse.gov.uk/myth/index.htm
Edited by jbif on 05/11/2009 at 18:20
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>>Now if you are cynical you might think that the builder gets a kickback from the scaffoldingfirm.
In these strapped times? Go and read a bedtime story silly boy. We are not all like you.
MD
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