As a few of you might know, I bought a 1990 Jag XJ-S convertible earlier this year. This is stored in a garage for the classic car insurance stipulation, and this is a long single garage. The nights will soon be drawing in and the frosts will not be far behind so I am after some advice.
The garage itself is not attached to the house. It has a flat roof (timber with felt on the top with white gravel on that. It does not have any heating and is of single-skin white flint brick contruction. Stored in with the car are a few freezers and fridges that are used but which we do not have room in the house for. The is electric in there with couple of spare sockets.
The fridges / freezers get wet on the front in the depths of winter with condensation. I dare say the car might too (?).
I painted the garage floor with suitable floor paint (two coats) last weekend to keep the dust down, but now need to see what I need to do next as far as suitable storage is concerned.
Someone suggested one of those electric oil filled radiators set with a thermostat would be a good idea, but I guessed that with a non-insulated garage door, no cavity wall, etc that this would not have any influence on the general garage temperature and might well cost a fortune (mind you, if it cost say £100 in electricity a year and worked to prevent rot and rust I am happy with that). Is this a sensible option?
Could I insulate the normal up and over metal garage door with anything? What? Is there any point?
I would stress that I still plan to run the car on and off through the autumn and winter although only on dry days where possible as I know every car lasts better for being driven.
The car is being waxoyled as we speak and two small areas of rust on the wheel arches (that turned out to be a lot bigger than we thought) are being cut out and replaced with two new rear wings and resprayed. The paint on the whole car is going to be getting some very special polishing from a Porsche trained paint guy very soon too.
Do I store it with the roof up or down, windows open or closed and do I used a cotton car cover or a breathable outdoor car cover additionally?
Any tips and advice to look after my lovely toy would be appreciated!
Thanks.
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>>The fridges / freezers get wet on the front in the depths of winter with condensation.
It sounds like their insulation's not too good and water vapour's condensing on the cold surface.
On the plus side, it means the air inside the garage is effectively being de-humidified and they'll be supplying a small amount of heat.
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I don't 'lay up' cars, but I have never liked the idea of a car cover - it prevents circulation. If you want to keep the engine slightly warm, you might fit a lampholder in a decent-sized can (for protection) with say a 60-watt bulb, and leave it underneath during the winter months. That would not waste much heat but should be enough.
Roof - up, to prevent serious creasing (it's a soft-top?) with a window or two open.
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I'd have thought a car probably doesn't mind the cold much, but doesn't like the damp on account of wot it encourages the tinworm. So rather than a heater for the garage, how about a dehumidifier?
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I run my convertible all year round and it lives on the drive. I cleaned and treated the roof a few weeks ago and only occasionally cover the top when really bad weather comes. Garaging may accellerate any rusting due to lack of ventilation. loads of folks seem to run the ragtop all winter with no problems.
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Winter is best time of year for any convertible/sun roof. Don't think anything beats driving along with the heater blasting and the hood down/roof open (forgeting about the emissions for a while!).
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Is it worth looking at one of these?
www.carcoon.co.uk/
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The fridges / freezers get wet on the front in the depths of winter with condensation. I dare say the car might too (?).
You need lots and lots of ventilation. Don't forget to wash the underside, especially under the wheel arches, when you put it away (because you don't want to put it away all salty).
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you dont need the garage hot, or even warm. You need it dry and well ventilated. Hood up windows open, never garage it when its wet.
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>>The fridges / freezers get wet on the front in the depths of winter with condensation.
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IIRC They do not work in very cold temperatures ( just like car A/Cs)
I suspect it is recommended to run the engine ( on a not too cold day ) and switch on the A/C to keep the A/C seals lubicated.
I guess an old fashioned paraffin sump heater would add to the moisture in the air but by how much?
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>>>> IIRC They do not work in very cold temperatures ( just like car A/Cs)
Fridges do not work simply because the ambient is often lower than than the required fridge temp, accordingly fridge freezers that control the freezer temp as a factor of the fridge temp can mean a thaw of the freezer contents if the ambient is lower than the required fridge temp for any length of time. We have a fridge freezer in out garage with seperate thermostats for both fridge and freezer and it is fine, like wise the chest freezer.
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The most important thing re storing a vehicle is controlling swings in temp otherwise the garage gets to, say, 1 deg for a few days, all the big lumps of metal (engine etc, also fuel tank) get to 1 deg, the ambient warms up to 5 or 10 deg and the coldness in the lumps of metal causes them to drip with condensation.
I have the problem with my motorbike, the engine can run with condensation, starting it to warm it though is the answer when it happens.
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Thanks for the replies so far. Lots of comments on the fridges / freezers! I have run them in there for 4 years with only one failure due to the cold.
The 'Carcoon' recommendadtion from Marlot is facinating although I might struggle to get the zip all the way round (the garage is narrow so the car is v.close to one side to enable me to get out of the other). £400 or so for the size I need (the Jag is very long even though it has a tiny cabin for the occupants) seems reasonable, but it will also stop me stretching over the car to get to a shelf and it would be a faff to remove and replace each time there is a nice crisp day to get the car out.
AlteaEgo's comment that what I need is not hot or warm but dry is partly where my thought was in having an oil fired radiator in there as warm might equal dry. Would that not do the business in keeping it dry? If it is on a thermostat then it might keep temperature consistant, although with such a leaky (air-wise) garage might all that heat just leak away?
NoWWheels suggests a dehumidifier. In this pretty poorly insulated environment would it actually work do you think? I viewed it a bit like using the aircon in a car (or a building) with the windows open, so you are effectively trying to dehumidify the atmoshere (all of it!).
I will drive the car every couple of weeks but my company car takes the strain the rest of the time.
It won't go into the garage wet of covered in salt. That is very clear.
So.....would a radiator help or hinder? Would a dehumidifier be better? Do I try and plug the air gaps round the garage door or are they good for air circulation?
Do I cover it at all (breathable cover or not)?
Or do I just park it up and not worry too much?
I don't want to get too obsesive about this.
At the end of the day I am realistic about what can be done to help stave off the ravages of time, (hence the reason why it is being waxoyled) but on the other hand I can't be unique in having come across this situation before can I?
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"AlteaEgo's comment that what I need is not hot or warm but dry is partly where my thought was in having an oil fired radiator in there as warm might equal dry. Would that not do the business in keeping it dry? If it is on a thermostat then it might keep temperature consistant, although with such a leaky (air-wise) garage might all that heat just leak away?"
Hot or warm does not equal dry. Ventillation, and plenty of it, equals dry. The best garage is one open at each end.
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Based on experience with my old restored BGT V8 which I ran for 3 years in the 90s, I would say uncovered in the garage without heating etc.
Rust very very rarely takes hold from the outside; it breaks through from inside sills, doors, box sections etc. If the waxoyl job you're having done uses a selection of high-pressure wands & nozzles to really fog the spray into all the nooks & crannies, that will really help.
My B V8 was waxoyled with proper wands and compressor when I got it, in all box sections, sills etc. The Webasto roof was done regularly with ArmorAll.
It was on my drive in all weathers, driven in all weathers and just washed once a month, and was still pristine when sold. The underbody Waxoyl was still intact, too.
As it's inside on a painted floor I really wouldn't worry too much.
The one thing I would say is: with yours being a V12, if you take it out in winter, drive for at least 30 minutes to get the engine, exhausts etc up to full working temp, to expunge any internal condensation.
My cousin killed a 4.0 XJS by only using it for short trips and never checking the oil: the engine seized because the sump was full of mayonnaise-like oil/water emulsion from condensation.
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NoWWheels suggests a dehumidifier. In this pretty poorly insulated environment would it actually work do you think? I viewed it a bit like using the aircon in a car (or a building) with the windows open so you are effectively trying to dehumidify the atmoshere (all of it!).
When I used to put our bikes into winter storage all I would do is switch off the fuel tap and run the bikes until the engines stopped. Quick and easy way of draining the carbs.
Clean and dry them and cover them. Under the cover I would then slip a moisture trap like this: www.lakeland.co.uk/F/C/cleaning-protecting/C/clean...u
midifiers.
At the end of winter there would be about a pint of water in the container.
The garage was a standard stone build with up and over door pretty close to the coast.
The bikes never rusted even though they were steel frames.
Edited by gmac on 25/09/2009 at 21:51
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Don't cover the car
Don't put it away wet
Ensure plenty of ventilation
Run the engine once a week for 15 minutes and aircon for a few minutes (outside of course)
Windows open is a tricky one as the upholstery can become damp.
It's also a good idea to bring the car out on any dry sunny days in winter and leave the doors, boot, windows open etc.. for a few hours (even better if it's a bit windy.
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Heating the garage would make the fridges/freezers work harder and wouldn't remove moisture from the garage. Get a dehumidifier.
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Get a dehumidifier.
By dehumidifier I mean one which as a refrigeration unit in it, not something which merely contains a moisture-absorbing substance.
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Heating the garage would make the fridges/freezers work harder and wouldn't remove moisture from the garage. Get a dehumidifier.
Heating the garage to say a reasonably constant 7 deg ish would not make much difference to the running cost of efficient fridges or freezers.
It is avoiding the drops to around zero and then increases to nearer 10 which lead to significant condensation within a stored vehicle.
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Heating the garage to say a reasonably constant 7 deg ish would not make much difference to the running cost of efficient fridges or freezers.
The average dehumidifier is only about 200 watts, so there doesn't seem much point in having a heater instead.
It is avoiding the drops to around zero and then increases to nearer 10 which lead to significant condensation within a stored vehicle.
If you have a dehumidifier it doesn't matter very much what happens in the way of temperature fluctuations.
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If you have a dehumidifier it doesn't matter very much what happens in the way of temperature fluctuations.
Quick thought. Doesn't efficient running of a dehumdifier rely on the building being reasonably airtight?
Airtightness is one of the big issues in improving the energy efficiency of new houses, so a good builder and architect should (in theory!) be reasonably familiar with the issues involved in achieving it.
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Quick thought. Doesn't efficient running of a dehumdifier rely on the building being reasonably airtight?
Yes, difficult in many garages, a dehu will only work if it can try the air enough to stop it dropping moisture on cold surfaces when it cools. To acheive that in needs to be virtually totally airtight and opening the door to get the push bike out or milk from the fridge will have undone the previous 24 hours hard work. Most garages are opened daily.
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opening the door to get the push bike out or milk from the fridge will have undone the previous 24 hours hard work. Most garages are opened daily.
Sounds like a case for a double-door system on the non-vehicle entrance. Outside doors open into a lobby, then inner door gets you into the garage. Same system as should be used on the front door of a house.
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....being a V12, if you take it out in winter, drive for at least 30 minutes...
Seconded, and drive it for longer if possible - it's easy to underestimate how long it takes to get a big engine warm in cold weather.
Don't forget to put the hood up and down a couple of times each time you take the car out.
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All sounds a blimming pain to me (been there!) why not flog it and buy a nice little Korean number ... or store it til May in a nice warm Cornish barn :)
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....All sounds a blimming pain to me (been there!)....
Don't buy a static caravan then.
I could write a book about 'winterising' mine - and a very interesting read it would be. :)
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As it is a free standing garage with no insulation and lots of metal inside i would be looking for free flowing air rather than sealing the place up and sucking moisture out.
To this end i would want to either have airblocks in the walls or leave the garage door ajar as much as possible,cars sweat if left in sealed places and this sweat will get into every orrifice including sills ,outriggers etc etc
no way would i go the entombed way with a device for sucking moisture out
rewritten because something made the swear filter delete 70% of my words
Edited by bell boy on 26/09/2009 at 11:38
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... for free flowing...
Too many f-words. :)
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>>>Don't buy a static caravan then<<<
Ah! but I did i,i,h, ... A 30ft Carnaby Hacienda on a freehold site in E. Sussex.
I used to 'black my nose' at some of the older vans and oh yes - its the chassis that gives up the ghost 1st in most cases ... I spose if they're looked after properly, they'll last a lifetime?
p.s. go on - tell us how old your cara'van is :)
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2006 Willerby Aspen.
Inland site in leafy North Yorkshire, so chassis rot is not the problem it is at the seaside.
And it's galvinised, I think.
Willerby talk of the caravan lasting 20 or 30 years, but as you say, if looked after it could last a lifetime.
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>>>2006 Willerby Aspen.<<<
Wow! And there was me thinking my Carnaby was 'Port Out Starboard Home' :)
Enjoy the bbq Autumn!
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...Wow!...
It was either a decent caravan or upgrade Ifithelps Towers.
Decided on the 'van, which I tend to use as a weekend residence, as much as a holiday place.
So it's four or five nights a week in the house and two or three nights a week in the caravan.
Preferable - to me - than seven nights a week in an upgraded or bigger house.
Apologies to slightlyfatdirector for the thread drift, but at least you have had a canny few responses. :)
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:0)
The responses are detailed, thought out and thorough. That's why I threw myself on the mercy of you guys (and gals?).
Craig PD130 seems to have hit the nail on the head (thanks) and I am going to not worry about either heating, dehumidifying (such a leaky garage air-wise) or covering the car and I will just ensure to gets a good blast to work (45-60 mins each way) every few weeks when dry. Should do the biz.
Many thanks for all your replies.
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Hello SFD, I couldn't add my twopennorth at the time - been away for a few days putting 500 very enjoyable miles on the XJS, which finally achieved its French plates today.
I think you're quite right to agree with Craig - use it when you can and just try and avoid the salt. I'll be doing the same. Winters are quite hard around here but only the autoroute and a couple of major roads are salted so I don't have to worry much.
I can hardly bear to put it away...
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Mike! Great to hear from you. Congrats on the new plates.
Glad to hear it is getting the full appreciation it deserves!
Mine is being nurtured at present getting the WaxOyl treatment and having a few bits and bobs sorted that I found when going through it with a fine toothcomb at XJ Restorations in Eastbourne. A shame really as the weather round here has been glorious for the past week or two and crying out for a top-down blast!
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I may have missed it, but no-one seems to have mentioned what I think is the most important thing of all - disconnect the battery after each use.
On my nearly 30yr old TR7 [used intermittently all yr round] I merely twist the positive terminal on and off the battery as required. All panels - even sills - are original - no rust. All electricals [such as there are] are original and working - even the pop-up lights. [although it has had a new condenser]
Microscopic electrical currents greatly contribute to corrosion. It is not a great chore to correct the clock.
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If you leave your windows open you'll get spiders and possibly mice in the car.
Spray your engine compartment with WD40 or similar
You can buy breathable car covers, I was looking at them for my convertible which I keep outside
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