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Wonder what his offending record was ?
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So what you saying HJ, the rider should have been allowed on his way without censure ?
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our sense of justice in this country has become warped, because some people in power have allowed it so
I'm with Martin....fines/confiscation/community orders etc....why not? (although PU's observation is more than valid in that there might be more to it)
I see people day in day out that DESERVE jail, no ifs no buts...yet they seemingly lead charmed lives
murderers get 12 years nowadays....rapist are getting 5 years sentences, which they rarely serve
there has to be a sense of perspective with sentencing...and there isn't one at present. The motorist, even the bad ones, deserve to be treated the same as everyone else.
p.s. i'm not condoning the riding in that clip
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So have you suggested to your force that instead of committing 15 officers 5 or six traffic cars, a couple of bikes and a handful of CSO's to yet another day at the road side seeing how much you can extract in fines from Joe Bloggs the nasty car owner, you have a operation in the dead of night to see how many Billy Burglars you can catch ?
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Report in a Scottish Daily paper today (can't be bothered linking to it as it is full of political tit for tat) states that on average only 65% of Community Service Orders are being completed and in some areas it is less than 50%.
Its also reported that an Aberdeen drug dealer sentenced to 280 hours of community service seven months previously had yet to be put to work.
The whole system is falling apart and although its easy for us lay-men to criticise it, it would be interesting to see what the police / legal contributors think would be a system that could work
a. In an ideal world, and
b. In current UK with its health & safety and human rights policies.
Any takers?
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139mph on a public road or carrying a knife... I regard the bike as the more dangerous... I agree that the knife owner should also recieve more suitable punishment, but the carnage that bike could have caused far exceeds that from a knife...
As to the "system" having a go at the poor old motorist... Please lets get real on this, he drove the bike at dangerous speeds on a public road when there were other road users around... this in no way can compare with the poor sod who got done for doing 35 in a 30 zone... I can understand HJ and others' wish to show the motorist as the poor villified outcast, reviled by everyone and milked by the Gov, but I suggest you use your examples better, this guy was a dangerous nutcase and deserved what he got.
BTW before I get classified as a "do gooder", I also join the clamour for punishments that are actually that, jails that are not holidays camps, and if they insist on "community serice" then make them work hard for the community, and in orange striped pyjamas so we all know they're being punished!
Edited by b308 on 20/07/2009 at 10:19
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BTW before I get classified as a "do gooder" I also join the clamour for punishments that DETER reoffending, jails that are not holidays camps and if they insist on "community serice" then make them work hard for the community and in orange striped pyjamas so we all know they're being punished!
(Sorry amend last para as above!)
Edited by b308 on 20/07/2009 at 10:22
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There is no one more vocal against the governments treatment of any one who uses a combustion engine on our roads than me ( see previous posts !! ) but our cause is not helped by idiots like this biker. Spend an hour on the A6 in Derbyshire and watch their pathetic antics.
They not only have little care as to wether they die indulging in their love of speed but they also don't care a tinkers cuss for who they take with them whilst doing so.
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Round us, bikers act like idiots and kill themselves with monotonous regularity.. (Leek-Buxton, Snake Pass etc)..
Eventually Darwinism will work...
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Seems we agree on this one, X! ;)
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The answer is easy - very, very easy - and is the same princple as should be applied to mobile phone users/texters whilst driving. In fact, it should be applied to all loony offences.
1. Crush the vehicle
2. Apply a 5 year ban - 25 year ban if someone has been killed.
Job done at very little cost to the taxpayer.
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This bloke killed no-one. A couple of days ago four people died in a road accident where the main cause was supposed to be a large pothole in the road. Should the council/local MP therefore be hung drawn and quartered for causing unnecessary deaths?
Anything to do with "speed" causes histrionics in some people.
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So its ok to drive at any speed you want anywhere in the country...
As long as you don't have an accident...
Mmmm...
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Maximum for dangerous driving is two years.
The guy went to trial so he's not entitled to any discount off the sentence the judge deems appropriate.
Anyone convicted of dangerous driving - motorbike, car or lawnmower - must take an extended test if they wish to drive after their ban has expired.
The sentence does seem a bit harsh.
About the only other thing that could effect it is the guy's previous convictions, which the judge will have known about.
We don't, but only because they don't appear in the report.
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>>So its ok to drive at any speed you want anywhere in the country... <<
No, and neither do I believe that the Tigra? was doing 40 in the other incident.
My point was that the biker was caught and punished. The presence of the pothole, which was probably a factor in the other, far more tragic incident, will be ignored and any official whose responsibility it is to control the repair of these deficiencies will walk away.
There is a tendency, not discouraged by government, to ignore any other cause of accident except speed.
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I've seen the pot hole in question. If that flipped a Tigra traveling at the legal limit of 40mph over, then I'm a Martian.
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then I'm a Martian.
I always had my suspicions .... :-)
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Waino, so I take a test drive in a Ferrari , use my phone whilst doing so , and the Ferrari gets crushed?
No skin off my teeth - though the garage may be a bit annoyed.
Re HJ on fines, so a guy earning £30k with company car and family, loses his licence, marriage breaks up, gets fined £10k or whatever, gets declared bankrupt.
Who do you think will end up paying the rent for his council house? And providing his job seekers allowance or whatever? And his crisis loans? And then his drink or drugs addiction therapy because he feels he is in a downward spiral, has lost everything?
All these "losers" that we all see in the street that are junkies, alkies or whatever were not all born that way. Yes some are chancers but others are there as a result of consequences in their lives that have dealt them a poor blow through one reason or the other.
I don't know what the correct solution is, but for every suggestion there is a counter argument and there will also be a lawyer trained in civil rights and the law of wriggling out of a charge.
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I think anybody who has been to jail should pay tax at a rate 10% higher than the rest of us.
Prima facie no reason at all for sending him to jail for a traffic offence; but as others have said, it probably wasn't the first time.
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If I contravened the rules for the care and use of a shotgun, eg by waving it around on a public road, in a manner causing alarm to other citizens, I'd be heavily fined, probably sent to prison, the gun would be confiscated, my licence would be revoked, and I'd probably never, ever, be allowed to obtain another.
I might also have been shot by a police marksman.
In the old days however I'd have been allowed to compound all these penalties by enlisting in the army and volunteering for service in Afghanistan.
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Re HJ on fines so a guy earning £30k with company car and family loses his licence marriage breaks up gets fined £10k or whatever gets declared bankrupt. Who do you think will end up paying the rent for his council house?
He wouldn't be offered a council house.
He would be regarded as having made his self 'intentionally homeless' and as so, would find it very hard to even get on a council housing list.
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Waino so I take a test drive in a Ferrari use my phone whilst doing so and the Ferrari gets crushed?<<
But of course - what has the marque of car got to do with it? Huh, badge snobbery!!! The moral for a dealer would be, be careful who you let loose, unaccompanied, on a test drive.
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Sorry, I'm late back to this. I was making a general point.
Was it your good self that changed the title to include the speed figure?
Nowhere in the article does it say he was going at that speed, only " above 100" It was the policeman pursuing him who said he had to do 139 to catch him (whilst operating the camera and giving a commentary).
"Fair sentence" alone does not describe what the OP was about. Changing it revived a threat that had died and got it another 30 or so posts (so far). HJ.
Edited by Honestjohn on 22/07/2009 at 18:50
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If he got 12 months in jail, he'll probably be out in 6.
In situations of dangerous driving which don't result in an accident or injury, the main penalties should be lenthy driving bans, which should include a ban on being the registered keeper of a vehicle as well. Breaking a driving ban should result in a longer ban - possibly a lifetime ban.
Edited by Sofa Spud on 22/07/2009 at 16:49
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He's disqualified for four years - and in reality probably longer as he will find it hard to get insurance.
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I know the video must have been edited & we don't the 'whole' story etc., but from what I saw & read, the guy was (of course) going very fast, but not, as far as I saw - riding in the way the judge describes quote: ""shocking and dangerous piece of driving".
Nowhere does it say he was riding at 139mph - merely that the police rider had to to catch up & did that speed.
Yes, a ban & hefty fine were in order (maybe even community service/driver rehab course etc.) , but to jail someone for a non-injury type of traffic offence seems harsh. Jail will adversely affect the rest of his life - and that of his family. It will also be hugely expensive in terms of incarceration costs, benefits (probably) for his family whilst he's unable to earn - and who knows, perhaps he'll not easily get employment again afterwards, so more costs etc etc.
Although not 'admissable' - the roads he was on looked quite empty & relatively safe - it's not like he was doing this in the suburbs. Driving at 40mph on a housing estate with cars/children & busy roads is probably more dangerous.
As I say, I don't know what the overall context was, but on the evidence available to me the punishment doesn't fit the crime.
Before anyone says what might have happened had he hit anything - well, he didn't & can't be judged as if he did. If somebody swings a hammer at your head & misses they're charged with assault not murder.
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Not mentioned are his pre-cons woodbines.
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... If somebody swings a hammer at your head & misses they're charged with assault not murder...
The charge could be attempted murder.
Back to motoring, this incident happened in the late afternoon and there are few places in the country where other road users are not about at that time, even if they don't appear on the video.
The point about the roads being relatively empty and safe will have been made in mitigation prior to sentence.
What may have worried the court most is this guy's not guilty plea.
He doesn't deny being the rider, so by pleading not guilty he is saying his riding was not dangerous.
Think about it, he thinks it is quite acceptable to barrel along at 130mph-plus in broad daylight on the public road.
Hardly surprising the jury decided to disabuse him of that notion, and the judge decided to lock him up to push the jury's message home.
Edited by ifithelps on 22/07/2009 at 18:02
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There's quite a thorough write-up in MCN. Salient points include - 4 day trial, previous, racing (probably) another rider who got off, 60 mph in a 30.
Police trying to prevent accidents - treating no-injury incidents differently to a pile-up with injurise misses the point.
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From what I saw ,a straight road, no hazards, no people, good weather conditions on a capable bike, where's the problem ?
The only problem is the danger to the biker, possibly from half asleep motorists who have never done more than 70 mph who are probably on the phone, who think that 70 is safe and 71 is illegal and therefore not safe. Yes I do know the speed limits for that type of road.
Of course none of you lot have ever exceeded the speed limit have you ?
He broke the law, but no one was injured, no one was killed and yet he gets sent to jail ?
I would wager, that motorists kill far more people other than themselves with their rubbish driving, and kill far more bikers than bikers kill themselves though riding fast.
Edited by Mr.Tee43 on 22/07/2009 at 19:49
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Re speed limits. That road is NSL, 60mph. At twice the NSL the rider is hardly in a position to predict whether the road is clear, or what is about to join the road ahead. I see bike riding near the Cat and Fiddle quite often. The majority are responsible, but there are some who need removing from the road before they remove others. But I'm not really bothered if they alone have to be scraped up.
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Police trying to prevent accidents - treating no-injury incidents differently to a pile-up with injurise misses the point.
Quite agree. As I've said above, even though I'm a biker he gets no sympathy off me. Speeding is one thing, speeding excessively is another. Every idiot like that who grabs the headlines for riding on public roads at racetrack speeds is another nail in the coffin for the rest of us who just like to ride our bikes (relatively) normally. As said before, there are plenty of track sessions available if you're that way inclined.
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Former biker here. I'm not anti, not too slow, and still read the comics. MCN not very often, although they seem to have proportionally fewer of the frothing tendency posting about this idiot than the local press:)
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And what about the selfish idiot Harley riders with their open pipes who take great delight in making so much noise in built up areas that Joe Public then thinks all bikers are gun toting, beer swilling marauders !
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this is not fair at all
sentencing in this country is all out of balance
for a start you can beat a copper to a pulp, spend the night in the cells, be bailed the next day, and get a non custodial sentence from the court
there is no way speeding no matter how serious should get a harsher sentence than beating a copper to a pulp
sentences are pandering to the politically correct lot, and the media
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my view is that increasingly excess speed is automatically being equated with being dangerous driving....and IMO this is not necessarily so. It can be of course, but you'd need to look at all the facts.
This man was given a prison sentence for dangerous driving..and to get a year inside, the danger element was presumably taken to be quite high. Again, i'm not convinced.
Take someone in a powerful sports car, who on a dry sunny afternoon goes for a blast. On an open A road with a load of vision and little or no traffic, they overtake a few people and on one long straight touch 100mph... Dangerous?...Well it could have been, but on the simple facts i've stated, then no not necessarily so...and my reasoning?...Well emergency service drivers do so..and they even do it when they're training, so are yet to be qualified, you'd just need to swap the sports car for a saloon car. How can it be automatically dangerous, if it were so, the training would be banned under H&S considerations alone.
p.s. i'm not suggesting there should be a free for all......just some common sense with sentencing and a little bit less hysteria
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In this case what about his previous and (probable) racing mentioned by an earlier poster, WP?
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About 12 years ago An ex-colleague of mine got six weeks in prison and a two year ban for driving at around 150mph on his Fireblade up the M1.
He was riding so fast the patrol cars couldn't keep up and they followed him with the police helicopter. He didn't even know the police were after him. They eventually caught him on a slip road when he pulled off the motorway.
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Speed on a bike is different to speed in car - far more control able. There should be different speed limits for bikes, especially on M/ways. For one thing riders are generally more skilled road users than Mr/Miss Average in a car.
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For one thing riders are generally more skilled road users than Mr/Miss Average in a car.
Unfortunately there is a sizeable minority of both bikers and car drivers who are barely capable of driving safely within the current speed limits and who would be a danger to themselves and others with higher limits.
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westpig, the voice of reason
thanks for a dose of common sense
now if you could get all your copper friends to join the association of british drivers... (if they are allowed to? does it count as politics?) ha ha only joking
all the best
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In this case what about his previous and (probable) racing mentioned by an earlier poster
in this case you're probably correct...PU mentioned earlier that there could easily be more to it 'previous' wise....and it highlights how difficult it is to form corrrect opinions from court cases where we don't know all the facts and have to rely on the press, of which many don't seem capable of reproducing those facts without their own slant to it
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This report in Motorcycle News gives a lot more information.
tinyurl.com/npv3jx
Edited by CGNorwich on 23/07/2009 at 18:09
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...have to rely on the press, of which many don't seem capable of reproducing those facts without their own slant to it ....
Where's the slant?
Was the guy found not guilty? Was he not sent to jail? Did he not ride in the manner described?
I can assure you, Westpig, there is very little slant in court reporting - lawyers are very quick to sue and judges are not shy of exercising their powers under contempt of court.
Analyse any court report - it is mostly quotes or reported speech.
The prosecutor said this, the defending barrister said that, the witness said... etc etc.
The newspaper or the reporter doesn't say anything.
There is a vast amount of information in a court case which needs to be summarised in around 300 words.
Inevitably, some things are left out, in this case one of those is the defendant's previous convictions.
It could be because they are not very relevant, or it may be they are relevant and there has been a lapse of editorial judgment.
I still say this guy's main problem was his not guilty plea.
He told the court, in his opinion, his riding was not dangerous.
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What did for this guy was his attitude. A little contrition goes a long way
Judge Roger Thorn, QC, said David Saxby warranted jailing for his dangerous riding and ?arrogant? attitude to the police officer. Telling the arresting officer that filming his antics "was not cricket" and that "he had spoilt a nice day" was not a good move. Idiot!
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ifithelps,
the MCN coverage seems pretty good. Much coverage from some of the press covers the salacious angle and misses the more mundane bits. Trouble is you really need the whole lot to make an informed opinion.
A good example is the Daily Wail. If you read the DT or a well known competitor you've much more of a chance of getting the full or nearly full picture.
The BBC in my IMO leaves a lot to be desired, as well.
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Unacceptable posting
Edited by Pugugly on 26/07/2009 at 12:23
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the quality of judges leaves a lot to be desired
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From what I can see, the judge weighed up this particular criminal quite well.
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snipped as it was a response to the unacceptable posting
Edited by Pugugly on 26/07/2009 at 12:25
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snip
Edited by Pugugly on 26/07/2009 at 12:25
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Mr X,
If you could only get your facts right first, then that would make an informed and civilised debate that much easier.
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snip
Edited by Pugugly on 26/07/2009 at 12:26
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snip.
Edited by Pugugly on 26/07/2009 at 12:26
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snip
Edited by Pugugly on 26/07/2009 at 12:27
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snip
Edited by Pugugly on 26/07/2009 at 12:27
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cut as it was a response to other deleted posts
Edited by Pugugly on 26/07/2009 at 12:28
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cut as it was a response to other deleted posts
Edited by Pugugly on 26/07/2009 at 12:28
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And now back to motoring please.
DD.
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Yes please!
I've really enjoyed reading this thread and looking at it from all of your differing opinions.
Being a lorry driver, biker and a car driver I find my own opinion swaying with each reply I read and I still can't decide if it was a fair sentence or not.
Ok, he could have killed someone, and for that he could have gone to prison.
He didn't kill anyone but he did go to prison.
I believe his attitude nailed it for him, as well as putting another nail in the coffin of so many other bikers.
He could have done far worse and not have gone to prison but I'd like to hope, reading about him, that at the very least......................he enjoyed it!
Pat
Edited by pda on 24/07/2009 at 18:49
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I agree its a difficult one. My guess is that on appeal his sentence will be reduced.
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Put money on it!
If you read the first link and then read the MCN link where there is more detail the stories are about the same incident but poles apart.
By the omission of detail and fact - selective reporting, then the readers perceptions can be swayed which is extremely damaging.
The media is a powerful tool and should be used properly to avoid injury and damage.
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This must be the first speeding thread for some time to which I have made no contribution. For the record, I don't think it's appropriate to jail someone for speeding if they have caused no injury to third parties. There are other penalties, sanctions and so on. And there are many worse crimes.
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Whilst he's sat in a cell with just a bucket for company, he's not speeding up and down our roads at over 100 mph.
Allowing them to keep their liberty with just bans and points is a complete waste of time judging by the number of all ready disqualified drivers / riders who flout their bans.
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If we are going to lock speeders up in prison, at what speed above 70 and for what reason, Mr X.
If it is because anything over 70 mph is an offence, then nearly every car driver on every motorway in the country would at some point get locked up, because most exceed the limit. It,s an undisputable fact and we know that the police usually let people drive over 70 without penalty.
One could argue that doing 80/90 on a busy motorway is far more dangerous, with the potential to kill many people, and cause more carnage, than that rider doing over 100 on that straight virtually empty road on a clear dry sunny day.
So go on, tell me what speed is legal/safe and what speed and where is deemed to be so illegal/unsafe as to merit a prison sentence.
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Non-bikers don't realise how quickly you can, on a fast bike, accelerate to silly speeds then stop. Only takes a few hundred metres. It is easy to get to 100+ when overtaking. By the time the car coming the other way has flashed you, you have already closed the throttle and are back on the right side of the road.
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You could argue that "doing 80/90 on a busy motorway is far more dangerous", but Mways are safer. They are restricted to motor vehicles, have few and well engineered junctions, and the carriageways are separated by a sturdy barrier. So its not a sensible argument.
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"They are restricted to motor vehicles, have few and well engineered junctions, and the carriageways are separated by a sturdy barrier. So its not a sensible argument. "
But driving at more then 70mph is still against the law, so why should we not put the ones that drive over 70 in prison, because afetr all, an accident at 80/90 could cause a fatality, and it would seem that the judiciary now take what might happen, should an accident occur, into account in arriving at a sentence.
Or is it that bikers are seen in general as nasty machines, ridden by hooligans and have no place being ridden on nice country roads and there is an agenda to get rid of them.
It happened to the green laners.
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Fullchat wrote: ...By the omission of detail and fact - selective reporting,...
Fullchat,
What has been selected/omitted?
You are looking for a conspiracy here where there is none.
The story is a simple one - biker rides at extravagant speed and gets sent to the big house with a flea in his ear by a judge.
This was probably one of a dozen cases at Kingston-upon-Hull Crown Court the press were trying to cover that day.
In that situation, you're just pleased to get a (reasonably) accurate report away - there's no time for hidden agendas.
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I see those nice sensible biking chaps are on BBC 1 at the moment.
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Come on Mr X, I want a reply.
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And they have been in wetwang
good too
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Lets have prison for bike riders who exceed 100 mph off M ways on ordinary roads. There, thats my view.
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Why ?
Explain your reasoning.
Oh and BTW, since when did an African Twin weigh 600KG ?
The policeman on THAT program said it did and what they say is the truth, isn't it ?
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Should I go to jail ?
About 130 to 140 at one point in the video.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp_x-ItDxBU
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Dry Weight: 207.5kg
i assume mr tee you are a biker ?
you watched the programme
do you agree or not there is a minority of bikers that ruin the lovely roads of our isle with their pig headed couldnt care less bullying attitude
i will reiterate,this last 3 years the roads around wetwang have been ruined on a nice sunday afternoon by speeding inconsiderate hooligans that should be at cadwell park where they can get the speed out of their minds from their mundane petty little lives and give us sedate sunday toddlers our roads back to toddle along and take in the scenery
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Bikers have made travel around places like Whitby, Buxton and many North wales areas totally unpleasant at weekends and on summer evenings with their TT course antics.
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snip.
Edited by Pugugly on 26/07/2009 at 12:30
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snip
Edited by Pugugly on 26/07/2009 at 12:30
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...and with that as this thread has become decidedly personal, unpleasant and bogged down, the key is turned !
Following a request to re-open the thread and an intervention from HJ requesting snipping of the more threads to remove "garbage" take that as a warning !
Edited by Pugugly on 26/07/2009 at 12:32
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