Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong?

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Wed 20 May 2009 15:25
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Sulphur Man

What's up with Honda UK cars. 5 years ago, they were in the ascedancy with the mk1 Jazz, the bland but very practical and sensible Civic, including the classic Type R, the S2000 was still wowing the press, the last Accord was a well-specced alternative to a boggo E46 BMW 318i and certainly better than the last C-Class, build-wise. It drove better than the previous A4 too.

Now, the company seems rudderless, and the UK range is, at best, middle of the road, and at worst, dated. Worse, for a company that claims it's the world's biggest engine-manufacturer, they offer so little to the consumer choice to the UK driver.

Current range -

Jazz Mk2, a fundamentally good car but it seems not that much better, than its predecessor. The auto-gearbox "issue" has been well debated here already. Also, better engines available in other markets.

Civic - the novelty-factor has long since worn off, and we're left with a car that's dynamically well behind its competitors and comes with a weak petrol engine and one solid, but uninspiring diesel. It's also dealt a blow to Honda's reliability claims.

CR-V - Middle of the road SUV, and definitely one of the ugliest in its class. Comfortable, certainly, but not exactly a brand flagship.

Accord - A failed wannabe 'premium' saloon that looks badly dated next to E90 BMW and latest C-Class. Mondeo also thumps it dynamically and value-wise too.

S2000 - Now discontinued. A great car, but a niche car and off the class pace for a few years now. The popular CC sector cars sidelined it years ago.

Insight - A Prius-facsimile, deliberately manufactured to be cheaper and scarcely more economical than it's petrol and diesel-powered rivals. Hardly 'The Power of Dreams'.

FR-V - Decent but again, a dated car, have you ever been in the front centre seat of one? It's comfortable but disconcerting to have no window beside you, no dashboard in front of you and no sense of protection. Exposed is how it feels and so it's never sold in decent numbers. No one could sit there on a long journey.


And that's it. That's what a Honda dealer has to offer. No small-capacity, efficient petrol turbo engines, no coupe or sports car, no funky small car (their biggest mistake in my opinion - the Toyota iQ is the car Honda should've made first). Just flawed and old-hat cars with little variation and, now the S2000 has gone, Honda no longer make class-leading engines, which is a massive shame.

I used to love this brand and you could sense their core values of technical innovation, design and attention to detail in their cars. Now its just a hotch-potch of forgettable models and so-so build quality. Some say the dealers arent the generous, attentive bunch they used to be. I'm not surprised, trying to offload that range of cars every day must wear one down.

What do you think?



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Wed 20 May 2009 15:36
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - captain chaos
It all started going downhill when they discontinued the Honda Z ;-)
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Wed 20 May 2009 15:51
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - stunorthants26
Totally disagree with you.

I like the new Jazz, it may be evolution, but if it was good to start with, why change an essetially good formula? Autobox is a mistake, but its one many have made, its not a Honda exclusive.

I still like the Civic, its not dated at all because its still more futuristic than anythingelse on the market and I still look at them and think ' nice '.

Ive only seen a few New Accords around, but it looks like a premium car to me - its not supposed to be the same as german rivals, its a japanese take on premium saloons and none the worse for that.

The Insight is a nod to enviromentalism, its not the final solution and like it or not, the elderly seem to like hybrids, lord knows why and Honda does cater to teh older generation traditionally. Makes sense.

As for the FRV, looks good to me, I can think of worse cars by a long stretch and I like the novel seating idea, stolen from Fiat I believe!

Storm in a teacup by all accounts, Honda make some decent if expensive cars.
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Wed 20 May 2009 16:23
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Hamsafar
We just just saying here in the office yesterday how dated looking the 'new' Civic has quickly become. That's the trouble with fashion statements, rather than true style.
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Wed 20 May 2009 16:40
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Happy Blue!
If I remember correctly, when the current Civic was show to the world I announced on this site that it looked great but would date very quickly. I think I have been proved right.
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Wed 20 May 2009 17:00
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - bell boy
proper hondas were always made in japan and sold on quality of everything
now its just another car in the car park
i
they might have sold more since they opened the can factory in swindon but they lost that loving feeling even the everly brothers know that
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Wed 20 May 2009 17:04
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Lud
they lost that loving feeling even the everly brothers know that


Yeah, righteous bb, righteous...
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Wed 20 May 2009 17:14
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - SteVee
They've lost their way on bikes as well - they are still good bikes, but no longer the premium product they once were.
I know they've gone from F1, but they aren't having much success in Moto GP either, or Superbikes. There is some success in Supersports - the 600s - but they are not as dominant as they have been.

How are they doing in generators / boats etc ?
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Wed 20 May 2009 17:54
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Lygonos
Whatever the debate on the virtues/vices of individual models, Honda need to crack out some petrol-turbo engines.

They've always looked down their noses at anything other than N/A petrols (had to go turbodiesel as N/A just can't be made that powerful other than through bigger displacement) but are starting to be left behind in the race to combine emissions and performance.

As far as the S2000 goes it has been left to rot on the vine, similar to the NSX, while the original competitors are updated (eg. Boxster, Z4).

What would be the problem with slotting in a tuned 2.2 or 2.4 to improve the low down torque, and enable a longer 6th gear to improve economy.

Any manufacturer who can leave a car that produces 227g/km of CO2 for years deserves all they get for their complacency. The effect of being in the to tax band has no doubt wrecked a large number of sales.

And I quite like Hondas...

The FRV is a great machine, the CRV is better at load-carrying than most other soft-roaders, the rest of the range aren't worth a £2k+ premium over normal fare.
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Wed 20 May 2009 18:04
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - TheOilBurner
I must admit, I've thought of getting a CRV and the two things that put me off were: a) the problems reported with the 2.2 diesel and b) the lacklustre petrols with behind the curve fuel economy and emissions. Neither option seemed desirable.

They really need to pull their socks up and stop resting on their laurels.

A friend had an 02 Civic Type-R and loved it to bits, but just didn't get on with the new one at all. No improvement in the engine and the new Civic is also way too lardy and misses key selling points from the old car, like the perfect gear change.
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Thu 21 May 2009 16:11
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Lou_O
If I remember correctly when the current Civic was show to the world I announced
on this site that it looked great but would date very quickly. I think I
have been proved right.


Very subjective, I still think it looks good.
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Wed 20 May 2009 18:15
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - cattleman6
The new Honda accord is an extremely nice car. Very good cabin qualty and lovely comfortable seats. If I had the money, it is one car I would seriously consider.
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Wed 20 May 2009 18:32
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Marc
I like the latest Legend but they're still a bit pricey and rare on the ground. I also like the Accord but they also seem overpriced.

The rest of the range is bland IMO, a bit like Volkswagen.

Their smug marketing and adverts annoy me also, a bit like Volkswagen...
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Wed 20 May 2009 19:22
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Bagpuss
Well replacing the all independent suspension of previous Civics with a rear torsion beam like on a 90s Ford Escort on the latest one looks like a company seriously sacrificing its engineering principles for cost.

Presumably after paying for the stylist there wasn't enough left in the kitty for developing anything else.
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Wed 20 May 2009 19:24
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Bill Payer
I think our Jazz (had from new in 2003) is absolutely fantastic as a local run-around, although wouldn't like to use it for long journeys.

The new one isn't much different (although apparently rides better and is more comfortable) but has some issues which just seem stupid - messy boot arrangement, no spare, the dash is all a bit weird.

I kind of agree about getting the 1.5 engine and proper auto available elsewhere but that would kill the CO2 rating and it would be slated for having high road tax.


Accord is Ok but disagree about comparisons with C Class. I had an Accord on test for a few days and I spent the extra on a C Class.

CRV badly needs a diesel auto, and it needs to be made a little better quality-wise - plastics etc. Could be really popular.
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Wed 20 May 2009 20:00
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - the swiss tony
Last time i drove a Honda I nearly feel asleep at the wheel.

Bland doesnt come into it.

I cant even remember what model it was, I was dozing again as I walked past it, so what the boot badges said didnt go into my long term memory.
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Wed 20 May 2009 22:09
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Manatee
I agree they've lost the plot, especially styling-wise. Attaching bits of silver painted plastic to steering wheels - yuk. Why the brilliant packaging of the 2001 Civic was ditched for the overstyled claustrophobia-inducing new Civic is a puzzle. The Accord is a slab-sided thing I would find hard to love. The Jazz would be a reasonable proposition at 2/3 of its price.

I do like my 'old' CRV diesel, which I can wring 46mpg out of - making a 50mpg Prius look a bit superfluous, so I'll probably keep it as long as it works properly.

I'd like a new CRV, though it has also acquired some tacky styling touches, but not enough to find £15k to swap while mine is behaving itself. A diesel auto might persuade me, so why isn't there one?
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Thu 21 May 2009 00:08
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Altea Ego
this is just the same ramblings from club alzthiemers moaning about the fact that they dont make bland boxes for the olds any more.

The civic still looks sharp to those with a youthful eye, and the Accord looks classy.
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Thu 21 May 2009 00:18
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Lygonos
But under the skin they've hardly changed for 10 years.

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Thu 21 May 2009 00:19
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Manatee
>>this is just the same ramblings from club alzthiemers moaning about the fact that they dont make bland boxes

Very good - from someone whose taste runs to Renaults if I recall correctly - of course I could be confused again...

Edited by Manatee on 21/05/2009 at 00:20

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Thu 21 May 2009 00:27
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Avant
"This is just the same ramblings from club alzheimers moaning about the fact that they dont make bland boxes for the olds any more."

If anything the majority view seems to be that Hondas have becone too bland.

My impression of Hondas used to be that you got Japanese reliability with just a bit more driver enjoyment than you'd get with other Japanese marques.

Nowadays -

Jazz - Bill P is right; not a car to take on a long run. SWMBO had one of the first in the UK and her previous Ford Ka was much less frenetic at motorway speeds. In some other countries you can get one with a 1.5 engine, and the reasons not to allow this in the UK are spurious and unconvincing.

Civic - opinions vary on the looks, but the rear visibility on this car is bad enough to be dangerous, and I wouldn't have one if you paid me to (on second thoughts, I would, and I'd flog it).

Accord - I haven't tried the new model but it looks better (particularly the Tourer) than its predecessor - but why is it so expensive? You pay BMW / Audi prices for something that won't hold its value nearly as well, and I'm not sure what it can do that my Octavia (costing £5,000 less) can't.

Generally I think Honda UK are in difficulties because of the lack of a USP for the extra price you pay for most models over the oppo.

Edited by Avant on 21/05/2009 at 00:28

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Thu 21 May 2009 16:22
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Lou_O
Accord - I haven't tried the new model but it looks better (particularly the Tourer)
than its predecessor - but why is it so expensive? You pay BMW / Audi
prices for something that won't hold its value nearly as well and I'm not sure
what it can do that my Octavia (costing £5 000 less) can't.


I was amazed when I had a quick look at the new Accord estate, by the time it's reasonably well specced it's pushing 27k. Considering the alternatives this seems significantly overpriced.
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Thu 21 May 2009 00:27
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Shaz {p}
I think Toyota re the ones that have really down at the moment.

Is there a car in their range you can see yourself buying?

Anything exciting (Supra, Celica, MR2) have all bit the dust.

New mini Toyota thingy looks good, but pricey.
Yaris - ok

Auris (I think its called).
Avensis,

Both worthy but dull?


Apart from the Landcruiser, the toyota Aygo is the only one that appeals.
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Thu 21 May 2009 00:33
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Avant
Good point Shaz - the Auris is the main problem.

On holiday in NZ this February we hired a Corolla 1.8 - a good car with plenty of oomph even in the automatic version which we didn't ask for but got.

I have absolutely no idea why:

(a) they didn't stick to the name Corolla for the UK - the Auris is only a facelift and why call a car the Toyota Ear?

(b) they won't let us have it with the 1.8 petrol engine.
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Thu 21 May 2009 00:37
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - ukbeefy
But for all this talk of Honda and Toyota having dull model ranges with little to inspire....have they actually lost alot of sales - Are they in a worse position than other makes with supposedly more interesting cars? Anyone have the figures?

I thought in both cases they are quietly and efficiently shifting cars while more high profile makes are bleating for money to keep sales up or factories open.

I do agree that the new civic was an odd direction to go in. have the sales been much better than the last model. People like my dad who has the earlier model would never buy the newer one (and I had one as a hire car and he did not even recognise it was a honda until he had been sitting in it for 10 mins.)

What I find interesting is in the US Hondas are completely mainstream - the sort of thing anyone and everyone drives - the same ubitquity as you'd find here in the UK with Bosch washing machines and nokia phones...ie the standard non cheapo choice. Kids buy civics, parents buy accords and minivans in droves. Not so here. THey are still an unusual and relatively rare choice. I do wonder if Honda ever wants to get to the level of ubiquity here that it has in other markets..
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Thu 21 May 2009 01:23
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - cattleman6
I think the new Honda Accord has character in it's design. I am glad they didn't copy the Civic design style for the Accord. The Honda Accord is a jolly nice car, particularly with the 2.2 diesel engine with manual gearbox. It is a pity they plan to stop diesel engine production in five years time. I can understand why though.
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Thu 21 May 2009 08:45
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - L'escargot
All companies and their products are only as good as the calibre of their employees of the era in question. Employees change so companies and their products change. That's why it's silly to maintain a long-term allegiance to a particular make, as some people seem to do.
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Thu 21 May 2009 09:27
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - daveyjp
"Insight - A Prius-facsimile, deliberately manufactured to be cheaper and scarcely more economical than it's petrol and diesel-powered rivals. Hardly 'The Power of Dreams'."

The one I drove managed 53mpg on an urban test route of about 10 miles.

This is far better than any petrol or diesel powered family sized car, unfortunately the excellent fuel economy comes at a price and the rest of the car is seriously compromised as a result.
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Thu 21 May 2009 09:31
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Pugugly
The CRV is my first (non motorcycle) in 10 years. It was bought for its part time 4wd/economy/and emissions criteria rather than its looks. I can live with it. It is a good car, I care little for brand image but couldn't imagine myself in an X5 or a Land Cruiser or any Land Rover product, good solid car at a very good price.
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Thu 21 May 2009 09:49
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Bill Payer
I think all (normal) cars are dull now - the focus on safety and economy is never going to be exciting, is it?

For quite a few years I had company cars, and for some time they were changed every 2 years. Each time you changed your car, you got a significant upgrade. Cassette player, then sunroof, then a/c, then CD etc etc.

There seems to be none of that now - perhaps cars have reached their pinnacle?

Edited by Bill Payer on 21/05/2009 at 09:49

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Thu 21 May 2009 10:30
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - DP
I think all (normal) cars are dull now - the focus on safety and economy
is never going to be exciting is it?


You beat me to it, BP. Can anyone think of a car under £20k that they really want? I can't. Apart from possibly a Fiat 500 Abarth ;-)

I've never desired a Honda. I've respected the engineering and the undoubted quality that's generally gone right through to the smallest component, but they've never been exciting cars IMHO. We had a late 90's Accord on a company fleet once which had done 180k and still drove and sounded like new. It was a nice car, but completely and utterly soulless, and devoid of anything that would make you strive to own one. My uncle once owned a Civic 1.6i-16 which was fast and handled well, but just oozed blandness.

I don't even like the VTEC engine as a road tool. I respect the engineering involved, and I like the noise it makes, but I wouldn't want one.


Edited by DP on 21/05/2009 at 10:32

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Thu 21 May 2009 10:54
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - TheOilBurner
You beat me to it BP. Can anyone think of a car under £20k that
they really want? I can't. Apart from possibly a Fiat 500 Abarth ;-)


Mazda MX5 is one. Decent 2.0i available for £17k.

If you're talking proper 4 seaters, then no, there's nothing in that price range that I'd lust after at all.
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Thu 21 May 2009 10:59
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Altea Ego
>Can anyone think of a car under £20k that they really want?


Because cars in the sub £20k category are practical purchases. Cars above that are aspirational purchases.
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Thu 21 May 2009 15:42
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Andy P
it's not Honda UK's fault - it's Honda in Japan, but I agree that they appear to have lost the plot with some of the cars.

Civic - the styling was a brave move - nothing else comes close, but then ruin it by putting a massive spolier in the middle of the rear window and ditching the independant rear suspension.

Accord - now I'd had a Type-S for the past five years, and it's been a real hoot to drive. The chassis is superb, the suspension supple yet controlled and the engine is brilliant. Then what do they do? Come up with another bland design and hike the price up into territory where they don't belong. In my experience, the biggest problem is depreciation - no matter what people say, they still don't hold their value well.

So now my eight-year period of Honda ownership is at an end (at least for the time being). I seriously considered a nearly-new Accord diesel automatic, but the prices are silly. So what's appearing tomorrow? A 2-year old BMW 335d SE coupe (insert big grin here).

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Thu 21 May 2009 16:08
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - guygamps
Funnily enough I feel that way about Nissan.

Nothing to replace the S200SX ever (350/370z is only a 2 seater, so useless if you want something sporty but need to carry the occasional passengers).

Nothing in the Golf/A3/Focus class of interest, Qashqai is successful but when I sat in one I felt surrounded by cheap plastic, whereas the personally I want a bit of luxury around me at this time of life.

Primera,... oh dear, that sector is diminishing anyway, and citroen C5, Mondeo, and Insignia have all upped the ante by miles

No 7 seater MPV (Quashquai doesnn't cut it) meaning something in the Voyager / Grandis / Galaxy area

Local dealer has resorted to double franchise and now sells Fiats as well!

Sister company Renault on other hand is really quite funky these days, with exception of Laguna.

Personally I still love the new Civic looks, but agree engine range is weak. I nearly bought an new Accord recently, think they are lovely. My sister has an FR-V and raves over it, point of middle seat is for very occasional use. She has 2 kids, so she, hubby and 2 kids are fine, then each kid can bring a friend, its perfect for such occasions.


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Thu 21 May 2009 16:20
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Pugugly
I like my CRV - ugly at the front alright but otherwise pretty nice looking. I hated the Civic when I first saw it but it has grown on me and its a lovely looking car, with far more of the spirit of the original Focus than the lumpen current version.
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Thu 21 May 2009 16:38
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - captain chaos
I liked the quirky Honda Insight. Looked a bit like something from UFO. A little Citroenesque at the rear end, especially the seventies style rear arches. Never owned a Honda but if I were to buy a Japanese car I would definitely consider one. They just have that quality look to them IMHO
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Thu 21 May 2009 16:41
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - DP
Sister company Renault on other hand is really quite funky these days with exception of
Laguna.


What we need are Renault designs, engineered, wired up and assembled by Honda. I'd be at the head of the queue.
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Thu 21 May 2009 16:55
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - captain chaos
Or better still, Alfa Romeo designs, engineered, wired up and assembled by Honda.
God would drive one
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Thu 21 May 2009 18:02
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Shaz {p}
Or better still:

Alfa Romeo Designs, engineered by Alfa / Fiat (engines are pretty good thinking of the old Arese 3.0 / 3.2 v6), with help from Honda (consultancy) on Ancillaries.


Then: wired up, electrics etc, and assembly by Honda.

Oh, and of course RWD, with decent suspension.

Wow.
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Fri 22 May 2009 09:39
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - DP
Alfa Romeo Designs engineered by Alfa / Fiat (engines are pretty good thinking of the
old Arese 3.0 / 3.2 v6)


I had this, a photo of an engine, as my desktop wallpaper for a while. Doesn't it just make your tongue hang out?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GTAengine32.jpg

My first experience of the Arese lump was in a friend's 156 Veloce (2.5). I remember the noise being to die for, and that lovely surge and howl from 5500 RPM to the limiter.

Being brutally honest, the car was complete rubbish. Engine aside, what didn't fall off fell to bits or stopped working in some way, but that engine....My goodness !

Cheers
DP

Edited by Dynamic Dave on 22/05/2009 at 11:30

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Thu 21 May 2009 18:09
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - CGNorwich
Cars are OK - Prices are way too high. They want to be perceived as a premium brand and price accordingly. In reality cars are mid market sector and they are competing with the likes of Ford.
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Thu 21 May 2009 21:11
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Marc
"I liked the quirky Honda Insight. Looked a bit like something from UFO. A little Citroenesque at the rear end, especially the seventies style rear arches"

Yes, you've got something there. I've also always liked the solid looking alloys on the Insight.
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Thu 21 May 2009 22:21
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Sofa Spud
As far as UK goes, I wonder if the new Civic is partly to blame, with its bizarre styling.
It's like Honda tried out a whole load of unused ideas from its styling sketchbook on one dumpy little car!
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Thu 21 May 2009 23:08
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - Rattle
This is exactly what Rover did. I remember in the mid 90's a Metro even fetched a premium over the Punto. The punto was far far better built and probably more reliable. I still see 1000's of MK1 Puntos (they are still one of the most common types of cars in Manchester) and I probably see about 2 metros a week usualy lob sided.

I like a lot of Honda UK's products and they are my favourite Japanese brand as I find the cars so much less bland than a lot of Japanese stuff (although Mazda now make some nice cars).

Edited by rtj70 on 21/05/2009 at 23:15

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Fri 22 May 2009 02:36
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - carl_a
Jazz - well overpriced, little room in the front with a driving position to high.
Civic, I can't think of anything good to say about it and its unreliable
Accord, ok but overpriced and not class leading.

Honda and somewhat Toyota and Nissan have forgotten their core customers. Hyundai and Kia are new new boys in town.

Honda need to scrap the Euro Civic and import the Japanese model and especailly the NA coupe, I'd join the waiting list on one of these tiny.cc/AOaE4 for just over 10k
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Fri 22 May 2009 08:43
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - bazza
as I find the cars so much less bland than a lot of Japanese stuff (although Mazda now make some nice cars)...............
Indeed, Mazda seem to be on a roll, doesn't seem to be a duffer in the range really.
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Fri 22 May 2009 11:03
Honda UK - Where did it all go wrong? - xtrailman
With all the problems with the diesel mazda 6, logged on this site.
The mazda is the only jap car i wouldn't buy. The japanese are no longer the clear winners in the reliability stakes.

When the jap economy nosed dived, and european companies bought in, that was when things started to go wrong.

I had one of the first honda accords brought into the country, it was a great car at the time, and 10 years in front of ford, unfortunately the sub frame assemblies were rusting away, so at two years old it had to go.

I have always fancied another Honda, but they have never brought out a car that i really wanted, one of the early preludes attracted me, but it came with too much technology, and so was expensive.

When i took a test drive in the CRV, i was very disappointed,(and not just with the ugly back end) the car wasn't bad, but did nothing to inspire me to buy, i had read how quite the engine was, quotes like "i wouldn't have known it was a diesel" were made.
All i can say is the engine on the move was no quieter than my Xtrail, but was noisier than the forester which i had just driven, the forester diesel is very impressive, shame about the interior!

So that for me sums up why Honda have never really made it "big" in this country, theirs lots off better cars around, at a cheaper price, that look better
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