I find myself in agreement with Mr X on this one.
Edited by smokie on 28/04/2009 at 10:35
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With cars lasting ever longer its quite possible a towbar fitted 20 years ago is still attached to an aging volvo and by now having had 20 winters worth of road salt thrown at it both the bolts and the bar itself could fail after hitching up 2T of horse box and horses.
I don't see what your problem is, its structural and should be tested, end of. If you have a car with a towbar fitted thats in poor condition and you dont use it remove it.
If you're offended by itallic plates might I suggest you find a propper hobby..................
Edited by smokie on 28/04/2009 at 11:16
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May I just put a little counterpoint in here ?
I have a "prat" plate. It is displayed legally. It wouldn't mean much to anyone else but I like it. I've had it for longer than I care to remember. It is not an attempt to impress anyone or mislead anone about the age of my car. It has simple sentimental and mild amusement value to me and is not trying to send any message at all. It is certainly not an attempt to make my car exclusive, it's on a 7 year old Mondeo for goodness sake !
Why all the vitriol folks ? What possible harm is my plate doing you and if I may be as boorish as you for a moment what possible business is it of yours anyway ?
I do not approve of illegally displated plates either but a legal one is no more silly than choosing a particular colour for your car or a different trim level which confers no more than some aesthetic appeal to the owner.
I might not like something about your car but I would stop short of calling you a prat for it. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.
Edited by smokie on 28/04/2009 at 10:35
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HB puts the point very well.
Could posters (especially regulars, who really should know better!) please refrain from using this, or similar derogatory terms.
And while I'm at it, can we avoid discussing the merits or otherwise of personalised number plates again in this thread please? I am experiencing strong deja vu.
smokie, moderator
Edited by smokie on 28/04/2009 at 10:35
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Well I think checking towbars is a good idea,if there was serious corrosion at a mounting point wouldn't you want to know?How many people check the security of their towbar?A caravan coming adrift at 50 MPH on the motorway could kill someone couldn't it?If there is nothing wrong then it is not a problem,I cannot see how a basic safety check of towbars is some sort of underhand way to persecute all motorists.
Edited by smokie on 28/04/2009 at 11:17
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It's the way the famous ' saving lives ' comes in to play. The whole concept is offered up as if there has been some incredible explosion in the number of deaths and injuries caused by faulty tow bars and once again, the govt have ridden in to save the day.
. I have seen underneath hundreds of cars with tow bars fitted over the last 30 years and have never seen one so badly corroded that it was likely to drop off at any moment.
Edited by smokie on 28/04/2009 at 11:17
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sq
I know a bloke who spent 5 hours sweating underneath an old Passat in a scrapyard trying to remove a towbar.
My dad used to make his own for towing a 10CWT non braked trailer, he spent 36 years welding and fabricating heavy plate steel and knew what he was doing. Some towbars are £400+ its just possible some numpty with a mig bought from a car boot sale is constructing a towbar for his 4X4 at this very moment.
The MOT is about public safety
Edited by Pugugly on 28/04/2009 at 18:13
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Maybe naively I thought dvd was getting at the plates which intentionally make it that more difficult to read the number. That seems to be what the new reg is about. Not personalised plates. They're utterly harmless.
But I was delighted to read that Geoff Hoon has "secured a change in the law" so the cross of St George or other national emblem can go on the plate. He's really worth his money.
While you're moderating, smokie, you might want to look at and then edit or remove dvd's second link in first e-mail. It's to a rather specialist site.
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And while I'm at it can we avoid discussing the merits or otherwise of personalised number plates again in this thread please? I am experiencing strong deja vu. smokie moderator
D31AVU is probably available if you really want to share that feeling....
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Why all the vitriol folks ? What possible harm is my plate doing you and if I may be as boorish as you for a moment what possible business is it of yours anyway ?
Very restrained and dignified response HB. Only one other BR member (I think) admits to having a personal plate.
I have often wondered why people take this matter apparently so much to heart. It doesn't bother me. Indeed I even like illegal gibberish number plates designed to look like a kitten turning itself inside out in Arabic. If smokie lets me get away with it, I will suggest that those who are rude about these plates secretly fancy something of the sort themselves, but haven't got the money or the, er, gonads to arrange it...
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Very restrained and dignified response HB. Only one other BR member (I think) admits to having a personal plate.
Well commented Hump and Lud.. Might be me you're talking about. The Suzi came with one and SWMBO has one which I bought her as a sop to me getting a new motorbike.
Nothing wrong with either of them. Both legal. I have had a rotten towbar, though,
A Suzuki I was given had spent it's life by the sea. The towbar was rotten along with the rest of the car. Scrapped it in the end ! Good idea to have them checked over once a year at least.
Ted
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Only one other BR member (I think) admits to having a personal plate
I have on two cars - one carries my other half's name (conveniently) she had a three letter name and the plate cost 250 quid a few years ago - its a properly spaced English regional plate. My own car has a three letter three number plate which cost nothing other than regular transfer costs. In all honesty I like it and whilst other people are entitled to their views I don't give a stuff what they think. I'm sure they have some vanity or habits which I could equally feel bad about if I worried about things like that. Agree with testing tow bars and while they're at it Caravans.
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Well what a relief. This will certainly save hundreds if not thousands of lives a year. One reads almost daily the tales death and destruction caused by having a faulty tow bar. Just another cheap shot in the daily war against the car owner.
Daily tales of death and destruction, hundereds or thousands of deaths a year.
Calm down.
Where is this reported? Why no national outcry? Its only another MOT check.
Edited by Old Navy on 28/04/2009 at 10:53
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>>Its only another MOT check.
Yet more MOT mission creep - it should be resisted. Yet another excuse to charge customers more for their MOT. It's rare, but, I'm with Mr X on this.
To justify their continued employment, the MOT team in VOSA have to be seen to be doing something. Step by step, we'll end up with Shaken - you'll all love that!
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I can't help wondering how long it will be before the MOT reaches the proportions of the checks carried out by the air line industry and you have to book your car in for a week at a time so that it can be dismantled and put back together again, allowing for the X raying of all those parts they can't see directly in to .
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. Yet more MOT mission creep - it should be resisted. Yet another excuse to charge customers more for their MOT. It's rare but I'm with Mr X on this.
A towbar ready for use is structural, it should be tested as such, if you don't want it testing remove it.
Two of our cars have towbars, I'd like to know if they are fit to use, I'd like to know that the caravan in front of me this summer is not going to suddenly detatch itself complete with the bar and wipe me out
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>>A towbar ready for use is structural
Yes, I never suggested it wasn't.
The point I'm trying to make is that the line should be drawn, and MOT mission creep is not something we *really* want or need.
While checking towbars is technically sensible, it's the bigger picture of an expanding, more complete, more rigourous, more expensive MOT which is bad news. The onus needs to be placed upon doing adequate servicing and maintenance, rather than relying upon the MOT as the arbiter.
I would be happier to see DVLA adding a tally of MOT failures against registered owners, and owners who regularly present vehicles which fail the test as it is would receive some imprompu visits and inspections by VOSA, with prosecutions under construction and use for any infringements. That really would make an improvement to road safety. (This, broadly, already happens for HGV and PSV operators)
The MOT has never been complete or rigourous, and each new test aspect that gets added is a well intentioned step towards nightmarish Shaken.
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Pardon me N_C, but what is "Shaken"? Apart from "Not Stirred", obviously.
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..what is "Shaken"?
>>
IIRC it is the very very stringent vehicle checks on vehicles in Japan.
So strict it condems quite new cars hence some of the gray market exports of quite reasonable vehicles with lots of life left in them.
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Seconded. ( referring to Number_Crunchers post )
Edited by Mr X on 28/04/2009 at 11:29
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MRX
I have seen underneath hundreds of cars with tow bars fitted over the last 30 years and have never seen one so badly corroded that it was likely to drop off at any moment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you are serious in this statement you made then you are either in need of a set of spectacles or you only look under new cars
get yourself down to an mot bay, or someone who deals in off road vehicles ,or speak to an mot tester, i saw a discovery the other month with a trailer on the back that had so much weight in it the discovery rear panels had warped into a v patern,it was absolutely disgusting to see and if i had the power i would have put a stop notice on it.
Im pleased tow bars are now part of the mot ,they always should have been,next time look around at the majority of types of people who use them and look at their trailers,you will see bald tyres, number plates made of cardboard ,wheels at sily angles etc etc
I cant remember the last time i saw a proper new ex halfords safe trailer.
(im not talkiing carravan owners here by the way who always seem to do a safety check before they leave home)
As for prat plates i think dvd means the stupid ones rather than just an unusual letter number set up that isnt messed with.
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'get yourself down to an mot bay, or someone who deals in off road vehicles ,or speak to an mot tester,'... that is precisely where I viewed the vehicles I mentioned.
As for the "public safety" ideal that some one always likes to raise in this situations, I refer once again to my standard reply.
" 11,000 died in NHS hospitals last year from preventable infections, miss diagnosis and clinical negligence ". How does this compare to death by tow bar related incidents ?
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I think the introduction of the towbar check is probably to do with the proliferation of the removable and foldable towbar types which have become particularly popular over the last years.
There were a number of cases publicised in the german press regarding removable tow bars where the tow hook parted company with the car whilst towing a caravan or trailer. There have also been various recalls regarding removable towbars, both original equipment and aftermarket.
IMO these towbars are a safety critical item and should therefore tested during the MOT. I don't really give a damn about number plates.
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It says it all really, enraged by personal / ittallic plates, but its ok for towbars to be made from dexion and old bits of bed frame or to be 20 years old and as rotten as a pear attached to rotten and distorted metal.
Where have all the motoring enthusiasts gone?
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Wouldn't it have been nice to have been presented with figures for the tow bar problem along with it's introduction to the MOT.
How many tow bars are in use in the UK, how many have been found to be made out of bits of old Dexion ( I suspect very few ), how many incidents had led to concern over the safety .....
For a govt obsessed with figures, why the omission of this bit of evidence ?
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I personaly don't think the MOT test is strict enough and the general public expect it to be a lot sticter than it actually is, unless it is their car in the test!
What I mean is you get so many people saying it has 12 months MOT it must be fine but we all know this is a lot of rubbish. The statement on the MOT about roadyworthness does at least attempt to warn people though that an MOT does not mean the car is safe.
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Wouldn't it have been nice to have been presented with figures for the tow bar problem along with it's introduction to the MOT.
How much tax payers money needs to be spent on whats a basic structural part of any car with towing capabillity?
If you don't use it take it off
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just done a quick road survey
25 vehicles passed me and 4 were large 4x4 pickups,all had towbars 2 had large trailers loaded and probably over their gross train weights
do vosa know something we dont?
Edited by bell boy on 28/04/2009 at 12:29
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Just bringing in the MOT to their existing standards.
There will be no change to VOSA?s procedures at roadside as checks on tow bars have
always been included as part of the check. If tow bars are found to be defective at a
roadside check, then this could attract a fixed penalty. As an example, a tow bar which is
found to be defective would attract a non-endorsable £30 fixed penalty notice. If the defect
was deemed to be so serious as to be a danger, a fixed penalty notice of a £60 fine and
three penalty points could be issued.
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in some ways its a bit half baked,you will always see more faulty lights on trailers than faulty towbars but the towbar is part of the mot test (probably rightly so ) but having a towbar does not include the trailer light socket in the test which is a bit daft when you think of it as you cant use one without the other and light sockets are more prone to salt damage than towbars
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I can certainly see the logic of testing the tow bar on the vehicle. However, that is only half of the connection; what about the other half on the trailer, caravan etc? Of the accidents which have occurred I wonder how many have been as a result of tow bar failure at the vehicle end and how many have failed at the trailer/caravan end?
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It would be wise then that when your car/van/pickup/etc is due an MOT you should have to take the trailer in as well so it can be tested with the car - faulty trailer -Fail MOT - Yes I have a detachable tow ball and all trailer lights work and it has two new tyres (not remould)
I know people could borrow a trailer but it would make them think perhaps I should fix up mine -- no !!- perhaps it won't going by some drivers out there.
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It would be wise then that when your car/van/pickup/etc is due an MOT you should have to take the trailer in as well so it can be tested with the car - faulty trailer -Fail MOT -
In Germany (and other EU States?) trailers have their own number plate and TUV test.
As for towbars, I can see the point of the inspection, but on my fixed one they will be able to do little more than stand on it as the fixings are behind the bumper and not visible without removal.
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"In Germany (and other EU States?) trailers have their own number plate and TUV test."
Of those that test, most countries don't test/register below 750kg max weight, so that rules out most domestic trailers, but includes almost all caravans.
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just done a quick road survey 25 vehicles passed me and 4 were large 4x4 pickups all had towbars 2 had large trailers loaded and probably over their gross train weights do vosa know something we dont?
obviously not as much as you there BB
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So VOSA have designed a test which does not allow the removal of any covers - presumably including towball covers. So a worn, rusty ball which can cause the coupling to part, can pass the test when fitted with a simple plastic cover.
Likewise, given that by far the most common safety hazard is the non operation of trailer lights, it's a nonsense not to test the integrity of the electrical interface.
Euro twaddle and costly gold plating - yet again.
659.
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I know a recent instance, where someone had a tow-bar fitted professionally (to an Espace IIRC). On attempting to collect their newly purchased caravan it pulled out a large part of the rear of the car.
I've towed. I agree a test of caravans and trailers wouldn't go amiss. I've seen some horrors.
I'll admit to losing a wheel off a caravan. It must've been my fault, I'd only had it off a few days earlier to check the brakes, but an annual test probably wouldn't have picked that up.
I'll also admit to helping remove the back bumper off a Moggie Minor and bolting a piece of angle iron to the fixings for a colleague to tow a small dinghy.
I was looking into towing brackets the other day. It seems legislation has been applied. There was a paragraph that said they must be fitted by a 'competent person'. Maybe a CORGI fitter?
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>>I was looking into towing brackets the other day. It seems legislation has been applied.
Towbars now have to be type approved, so no making your own. The car also has to be type approved for towing - not all are (Prius for example, many sports cars and some small ones like Kas). And of course in use the trailer must be within its MPTLM, the whole outfit at no more than the GTW, the trailer within the towing limit for the car, and the car within its GVW and axle limits (including the weight on the hitch). Most caravanners pay attention to all this, excepting those who don't pay attention to laws generally and are not usually members of the Caravan Club.
Classics are now an interesting problem when type approval didn't exist at the time they were made, and especially if no towing limit was published. I know a couple of people who tow with Minis - the consensus is that the towing limit is 450-500kg but I don't think that's easy to substantiate from what I've heard.
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>>So a worn, rusty ball which can cause the coupling to part
There's no mention of actually measuring the ball either - too worn and it will more easily pop out of the hitch. The same risk applies when people use ancient trailers with a 2" acetabulum on a modern 50mm ball, which I would bet is not that uncommon. And as BB says, overloading is rife.
I don't really have a problem with the tester eyeballing the towing equipment but legislating around the stupid things that (stupid) people do in relation to towing is not really tackled.
I wonder what they'll do when a car turns up with a detachable type bar but without the ball - I would guess quite a few people have bought a second hand car with the bar but no ball, and even more don't keep the ball in the car all the time.
Unnecessary in the scheme of things, and probably ineffective as a measure.
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i have a different angle for you all
i have a transit with a towball in fact its not a towball its the bigger setup for a proper large trailer,i havent ever used this towball in the near 5 years ive owned the truck,however i could sell my vehicle tomorrow and advertise it as having a towball and the fella that buys it might just stick 2 tonnes on the back without an even curserry glimpse at the chassis ends of my truck or even the bolts holding the whole sheraddle together (lets put it this way ,i think my truck is sound but i wouldnt use the towing stuff nowadays without a proper inspection of all pickup points and surrounding area)
normal car test on this little fella remember
Edited by bell boy on 28/04/2009 at 21:04
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Go on bb, tell us it's got a 24v Scorpio V6, double alloys at the rear, cut-down body with one of those crane thingies and painted all over with 'bb wrecking... we're there before the prang!'...
Go on. Tell us that. We want you to.
:o}
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its not
its my likkle personal charriot
and its a diesel
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I wonder what they'll do when a car turns up with a detachable type bar but without the ball
They have that one covered.
www.vosa.gov.uk/vosacorp/repository/Towbars%20at%2...f
If the tow ball is not fitted at the time of test, only the security of attachment of the towbar brackets and the condition of the vehicle structure will be assessed.
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>>I wonder what they'll do when a car turns up with a detachable type bar but without the ball
>>They have that one covered.
Not really if they don't test it ;-)
Perhaps I should have said quick-release rather than detachable, which in general I wouldn't expect to be fitted fo an MoT - especially if the play was more than 3mm!
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I tow. Both a small trailer, old but well maintained (full overhall last year) which is incredibly useful for dump runs etc. and a caravan.
I have a detachable towing hitch. It was professionally installed. And very wisely, the fitters offered a free check of the torque on the bolts after a few hundred miles towing.
Having seen many appallingly loaded/balanced outfits particularly wrt caravans I entirely agree with what many are saying and am quite happy for the towbar to be checked as part of the MOT. INdeed I think it would be very sensible for caravans to be subject to one also. I am always very aware that I have 1300kg hanging off of a 50mm ball on the back of my car but too many caravanners take this completely forgranted.
Incidentally i've been VERY impressed by the quality of my Westfalia towbar and would recommend the design of the detachable part which is very easy to remove/fit and also very secure.
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Like HB I have a cherished plate. It's three letters/two numbers and while it meant something when it was issued to SWMBO's mother in 1951 it's pretty meaningless now. No problem at all with it (or my other ordinary number) being part of the MoT.
I'm sure the OP's reference to "prat plates" meant the ever more common doctored variety. If I'm hit and runned on the bike I'd much rather witnesses could read the number as it is then try and make sense of TO55 ERS without the spacing!!!
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