Hey,
I think it's unlikely but not impossible, I guess. The crash is alleged to have happened 100m from my house, and I don't see many of my car about, so I'd say it was perhaps unlikely.
My thoughts are that he's either said 'a blue nissan' and the Old Bill have gone on the DVLA database and pulled my reg as I'm the only blue nissan in that area or he's had a prang on one day, seen my dented car and thought he'd pin it on me.
I think opening a case for fraud is a good idea..
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I'm no scammer, but it seems strange for this cab driver to maintain this account if he didn't genuinely believe something had happened.
This points to a cloned car or some form of mistaken identity.
I would be inclined to have a word with the cab driver , look him in the eye, and say: "Look mate, we have not been involved in any accident, have we?"
Your next move can only be decided by his response, but if he says something like 'it was our car', you at least know what you have to disprove.
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Reply to the insurers that you regard this as a fraudulent claim and will involve the police if the matter is not dropped.
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OP said: << Last October, I had a letter dop through my door from the local police saying that they were intending to prosecute the driver of a car with the same registration as mine for having an accident a couple of weeks earlier at 8:45am. They said the car had left the scene without stopping and that I needed to reveal who was driving the car at the time. >>
Is that the way these things are handled by the police?
Edited by Optimist on 25/04/2009 at 12:19
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It is. No phone calls, no tap at the door, just two letters stapled together through the post and the first I had heard of the whole thing:
first one starts:
In accordance with the provision of Section 1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, you are hereby given notice of the intended prosecution of the driver/rider of a mechanically propelled vehicle, registration number XXXXX
the second one:
You are the keeper of a motor vehicle, registration number XXX (or a person believed to have information regarding this vehicle, the driver of which is alleged to be guilty of the following offence or offences namely:
Dangerous, careless and inconsiderate driving
Contrary to section 2,3 of the road traffic act 1988
fail to stop and report an accident
contrary to section 170(4) of the road traffic act 1988
at 08:45 on XXX
at the location of XXXXXXX
On behalf of the chief constable I hereby require you to furnish me with the name and address of the driver of the vehicle on the able occasion.
If you fail to comply with this request, by not giving the information that you knew or would with reasonable dilligence have ascertained, you will be guilty of an offence punishable by a fine on summary conviction.
It is an offence to fail to comply with this request within 28 days.
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Great isn't it. No physical check to see if the vehicle in question has been involved in an accident, they just take the word of one party and churn out a letter. Once again, policing by computer.
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I posted on a similar thing about 2 years ago.
A bloke came up to yorkshire on the train to buy a car off me, he bought the car and drove it to the battersea area of london.
About 2 weeks later i had a letter from an insurance company saying my own private car that this buyer had seen at the time of purchase had been in a collision in the battersea area.
I immediately phoned my insurance company and they advised i wrote a letter to the insurance company denying all liability due to the fact it wasnt my car and to also send a copy to my insurer.
I did this and heard no more
To me its a try on and i hate scammers
To the op i hope at the time you told your insurer you had been approached by a third party insurer and you were denying all liability,to be honest i like the second post where it is suggested you make a complaint to the police with a view to a fraud being committed
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Great isn't it. No physical check to see if the vehicle in question has been involved in an accident they just take the word of one party and churn out a letter. Once again policing by computer.
rubbish....all that's happened to date is:
1, an NIP, Notice of Intended Prosecution, which isn't advice that prosecution WILL happen, but a legal necessity, within 2 weeks of an incident, that prosecution MAY happen. The 2 weeks rule is to ensure someone involved in anything has the opportunity to consider it or refute it within a reasonable time period and not forget the incident.
2, Requirement to provide details of a driver of a vehicle. Again another legal requirement as part of a prosecution consideration. You could argue that you shouldn't have to incriminate yourself, if you are the driver...however that line has been argued to death in numerous courts, inc within the EU system...so that is a matter for Govt not policing to decide.
If the OP decides to plead NG, with legal help, through a Citizen's Advice Bureau or apply for Legal Aid if funds are tight...then they're still entitled to go to court and be presumed innocent until proven guilty, just like everyone else.
If you want an army of police officers to come out and examine cars in accident cases, (other than the very serious ones) then its' going to cost you through your taxes, considerably. You'd need to badger your MP and ask for police numbers to rise dramatically..because they cannot cope with the workload they currently have, let alone what you're suggesting (and that includes the Fraud report to CID....forget it, it won't be happening). If you find that unpalatable, i'd be inclined to agree with you, but you'd be better off not shooting the messenger and addressing the concern to those that can change things.
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Having been told on this forum on many occasions that Police don't make the laws, they are only here to enforce them, it's interesting to see that nothing will be done about an attempted case of Fraud, ( which is a criminal offence as far as I am aware. ). Surely, as been pointed out many times as well, it is not up to the Police to decide which laws they will and will not uphold.
How abhorrent that some one can simple give your reg number to the Police and Insurers and start a long chain of events that you must spend time , effort and money distancing yourself from.
I love the argument about if we want this , that or the other from the Police , it's going to cost extra taxes.
Just what are we actually getting from the taxes we already pay because the list of things that will cost extra seems to be growing by the years.
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I love the argument about if we want this that or the other from the Police it's going to cost extra taxes. Just what are we actually getting from the taxes we already pay because the list of things that will cost extra seems to be growing by the years.
Mr X,
The taxes comment was made to indicate that if you want more out of something, that the provider cannot provide, then they'd need more staff to address it...which costs more money. If you're happy with that, then ask your MP to consider pressuring the Govt to achieve it. If you're not happy with that, then accept there are limits and that the more important stuff comes first...that is the score in any publicly funded organisation...e.g. look at the health service
Now you can argue that some priorities can be skewed e.g. lack of funding for traffic police matters versus other areas that have higher priorities, but you'll find that there is considerably more direction given to policing by the Govt, via the Home Office..than there ever was in the past....so once again, you'd need to direct your ire in the proper direction.
To consider the health service again, many moan about the tiers of management versus the actual number of nurses tending patients. If that was to irritate you, as it does many..would it be prudent to complain to the Govt who have instigated this...or the nurse on the ward desperately trying to tend too many patients and failing miserably, knowing his/her managers are all 'on line' but lack the power to change anything?
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... an attempted case of Fraud, ( which is a criminal offence ... >>
Really? Attempted fraud, eh?
Do remember that a cab driver may lose his cab licence to lose if the allegation that he is a criminal is proven.
Drat. I must remember not to bite.
Edited by jbif on 25/04/2009 at 16:18
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I assume westpig is a policeman but to be honest i find it hard to believe that if a scam is being committed then the police wont proceed
how else will the insurance companies get to know if this taxi driver or whoever else might be doing the same type of thing doesnt pull this kind of fraud on a regular basis?(im thinking bradford and leicester with the rear collision scenario)
oh and im not a police knocker and i pay my taxes
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?(im thinking bradford and leicester with the rear collision scenario) >>
Please do enlighten me, bell boy.
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No real evidence of a fraud (not just an attempt - see the 2006 Act), on what we're being told.
Some evidence of cloning, as Rattle pointed out.
i find it hard to believe that if a scam is being committed then the police wont proceed
They are probably hoping for some evidence.
how else will the insurance companies get to know if this taxi driver or whoever else might be doing the same type of thing doesnt pull this kind of fraud on a regular basis?
I suppose his insurers would have to be in on it, wouldn't they (regular claims against vehicles which subsequently proved not to have been involved - they're going to spot it)?
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I find it hard to believe that if a scam is being committed then the police wont proceed how else will the insurance companies get to know if this taxi driver or whoever else might be doing the same type of thing doesnt pull this kind of fraud on a regular basis
It's the same with financial type crime. The insurance industry and the banking ones are generally 'on their own' when it comes to investigating this sort of thing. Theres' Govt guidelines on it. It's worse in large urban areas, where workloads tend to be greater. That's where we are now as a country. I don't personally agree with it..as i'd like any crooked scumbag to have their come uppance...but you have to work with what you've got and be realistic.
(I'm going to deliberately 'drop' any future comment re this element of the discussion, because it's gone away from motoring and it'll save a Mod having to intervene).
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JJ2009a has already gone to considerable trouble to check that their vehicle was not involved, even to tracking down CCTV evidence to be used in their defence. To suggest that a Fraud allegation against the cab driver would be ignored by the police when JJ2009a has clearly some evidence to introduce in to the matter, is not on. If the cab driver can make an allegation with little more than a reg number then why shouldn't JJ2009a make a counter allegation ?
Edited by Mr X on 25/04/2009 at 17:10
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To suggest that a Fraud allegation against the cab driver would be ignored by the police when JJ2009a has clearly some evidence to introduce in to the matter is not on. If the cab driver can make an allegation with little more than a reg number then why shouldn't JJ2009a make a counter allegation ?
1,other priorities other than traffic type matters,
2, these sorts of cases can have dual investigative opportunities i.e. police and insurance companies, so police leave to them, to concentrate on other things
3, easy get out for 'suspect' making case difficult to prosecute e.g. "i've had an accident with someone, recorded the number, must have made a mistake and got the wrong car"
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The only one of your 3 points that I would take issue with is this one
'1,other priorities other than traffic type matters, '
'. Clearly not the case as the OP has found themselves embroiled in a traffic type matter involving the police.
Once this can has been opened by the police, they have a duty to look at both parties in this.
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they have a duty to look at both parties in this.<<
No they dont, if they have better things to do then so be it. Some crimes are more permissable than others and clearly the police look at the greater picture, which doesnt include helping one man. Its just tough luck.
If the OP is innocent Im sure that it can be resolved, a number plate alone just proves a number plate was noted down, not the car and who was driving it, even us non-officials suspect a cloned car, so im sure they are also open to the possibility.
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1 other priorities other than traffic type matters 2 these sorts of cases can have dual investigative opportunities i.e. police and insurance companies so police leave to them to concentrate on other things 3 easy get out for 'suspect' making case difficult to prosecute e.g. "i've had an accident with someone recorded the number must have made a mistake and got the wrong car"
1/ surely fraud isnt a 'traffic type' offence? ok it is involving motor vehicles but its not directly a motoring offence is it!
2/ so are a lot of other illegal activity's, are you admitting the harder cases are ignored?
3/ that can, and will of course happen, so that is another reason to ignore the crime?
So Id be fairly safe to go speeding, get caught by a camera, claim its an identical clone, and get away with it?
That would be a motoring fraud, hard to prove.... but I bet I wouldnt get away with it.....
'prove it wasnt you...'
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1/ surely fraud isnt a 'traffic type' offence? ... >.
Where is the fraud? Why is anyone jumping to the conclusion that a fraud is involved? Who says a fraud may be involved? Look again at the facts as posted in the first post.
Why is it assumed that the cab driver is telling porkies but the OP is telling nothing but the truth? The OP may know he is telling the truth, but has he asked how or why his 10 year old car is reportedly involved in an accident 200 yards within his home when he is allegedly at work?
Cab driver and passenger have reported being hit by a Nissan 200 yards from OP's home. The Nissan happens to be same colour and has same reg. no. as the OP's car.
OP says he can prove that on the day in question, he was at work at a certain time.
OP has not said where is car was, but if it was at home then it is not clear whether it is possible someone was driving it without his knowledge.
To cause damage to another car, it is not necessary to have any evidence left on the culprit's car.
The cab driver has not posted his story here, we have the word of the owner of the car alleged to be involved. The cab driver has reported a "hit and run", has a witness, has told the story to his insurance company, and six months later is probably not even aware that JJ2009 is contesting the claim.
If JJ2009 has any shred of evidence of a fraud then he should report it to the Police. Let us then see what action if any the Police take, rather than speculating about a non-existent case.
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Where is the fraud? Why is anyone jumping to the conclusion that a fraud is involved? Who says a fraud may be involved? Look again at the facts as posted in the first post.
May I humbly suggest you look at post 4?
>>My thoughts are that he's either said 'a blue nissan' and the Old Bill have gone on the DVLA database and pulled my reg as I'm the only blue nissan in that area or he's had a prang on one day, seen my dented car and thought he'd pin it on me.
THAT does IMHO point to a possible case of fraud.
While Im replying have you really not heard about what Bell Boy mentioned?
?(im thinking bradford and leicester with the rear collision scenario) >>
>>Please do enlighten me, bell boy.
If you havent... then you DO live a sheltered life! (clue... its a series of insurance frauds......)
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THAT does IMHO point to a possible case of fraud. >>
Nope it points to someone having a rich imagination.
If you havent... then you DO live a sheltered life! >>
swiss tony: look at the link posted by "ifithelps".
You will see that it is nothing to do with Bradford or Leicester.
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1, can be investigated by others e.g. banking industry/ insurance industry....so is left to them
2, yes. E.g. If you report damage to your car e.g. broken window, within the hour the case will be 'screened out'. No one will be allocated to investigate it, it will be left on file as a statistic.
3, Morally no...in reality sometimes yes, depends on the matter involved....spend your time on something you can achieve
footnote: 2, above can differ around the country. Large urban areas have the most difficulties as they have more crime reported. Not saying i agree with any of the above, just providing the reality. In an ideal world it wouldn't be like it...we don't live in an ideal world.
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Has anyone else noted that so very often a 'first post' causes so much heated debate????????
Moving on:
Has the OP actually seen an Officer or had a conversation with one? All I see is a series of written communications.
"In December, I had a note from the police saying no further action would be taken against anyone involved in the incident. The end of it, I thought, ............"
WHY???? would no further action be taken. Did the Police realise it was a bake, was it so trivial it did not warrant any further investigation, was it a case of mistaken identity. Answer this question and it could be a whole lot easier to deflect the insurance claim.
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Has anyone else noted that so very often a 'first post' causes so much heated debate? >>
Fullchat - I am glad to know that I am not alone! But then I suppose the hits all help the site's rankings with the advertisers, and so the management must be pleased.
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Thanks for that WP...
I do of course understand that the police cant act on every crime, and the bigger crimes have to be covered where the smaller ones can be left.
nice honest reply, I would say, and you dont have the easyest job in the world by a long way.
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