Friend was "caught without insurance" driving his 2006 car. This car is insured in his name under it's original reg number. A wee while after the policy was started, he transferred a private plate (a 2001 Y-plate with his initials) onto the car from his old one but forgot to advise his insurers (genuine lapse!).
Basically the outcome is that the car was impounded after he was stopped as it wasn't on MID with the new plate, he had to pay £170 to release it, and he has been given a fixed penalty of £200 and 6 points.
He's got 28 days to decide whether or not to take the points + FP.
Question: is there any point taking this one to court or is he going to have to take the fall? Anyone have experience of similar, and if so, do the courts take a sympathetic view or otherwise?
Seems very harsh as otherwise the car is unmodified, but his insurer aren't being helpful and have actually sent him a letter saying after this year's policy lapses they no longer want his business.
Anyhoo - thanks for any advice.
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He'll get at least 6 points and a similar fine at court. Plus costs and victim support surcharge.
If his insurer is saying they do not want his business then that could be taken as refused insurance and very significant!
If I were the friend I'd be talking nicely to the insurance company.
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is car the number plate taken from the same kind of car and model your friend put it on
if you get me?
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Current car is a 2006 Seat, previous car was a 2004 Hyundai.
The Seat is insured in my friend's name.
Basically the only thing done wrong, was not advising the current insurer of a change of reg-no on the current car after the reg transfer. It is otherwise the same vehicle that was initially insured.
There was no intent to deceive, or hide vehicle identity at all.
I presume the old car has not yet been sold, and therefore on the MID database the reg no is shown as an uninsured 2004 Hyundai. On the DVLA database (who made the reg transfer) the reg no will show up as a 2006 Seat.
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If it was 3 points and a small fine I would have just paid it and taken it on the chin. However, 6 points and £200 is quite a lot, and I would think about taking it further.
It was a genuine lapse by your friend. If he had crashed his car, would the insurance company refuse to pay out? I would hope that they would pay out, which means his vehicle would have been insured.
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I presume the old car has not yet been sold and therefore on the MID database the reg no is shown as an uninsured 2004 Hyundai.
An insured one, I hope? Otherwise I am beginning to have some sympathy with the insurance company.
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The Hyundai was traded to a trader in exchange for another car. Prior to this it was indeed insured by my friend. As it will have reverted to the original 04 plate after the reg transfer, MID will not have the private reg as insured, even if the Hyundai has been bought and insured now.
6 points is a big hit, as I think my friend has 3 points already for a SP30, much more than the 200 quid fine, and I wonder if a legal opinion will be worthwhile if there is a reasonable chance of a court showing leniency in view of a genuine error.
There is no way my friend would ever think about driving w/o insurance on purpose.
Is it the car or the reg that is insured? The car can be shown to be unchanged from the original insurance policy, but I could understand an insurer saying a private reg makes the car more likely to be stolen or vandalised (although it's a £300 reg on a base model Seat!).
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... Is it the car or the reg that is insured? ... >>
Something not quite right about all this.
IMO: It is the car that is insured. The reg. no. allows it to be identified based on data held by the DVLA.
So your friend gets stopped because his private plate pings the ANPR that the reg. no. belongs to a Hyundai and there is no insurance to cover the Hyundai.
So Plod says to him: "Hello, hello, this Hyundai looks like a Seat and has no insurance".
Your friend says: "This is a Seat, and it is insured, and here is the chassis and engine number, and the original reg. no. is XYZ; however I have transferred the private plate but forgotten to inform my insurance company of the transfer of the plate. "
So then Plod does him for driving a properly insured car which has a number plate that is not yet known to the insurer, is that so?
IMO: Time for your friend to seek advice from a Solicitor.
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All he had was the wrong registration mark displayed?
The insurer can't say he is not insured because of that. All they can do is what they have done, or not pay the insured in the case of a claim, they cannot say he is not insured as required by the Road Traffic Act.
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If I've understood correctly everything here has been done by the book (including the transfer of the plate at the DVLA) except telling the insurer the car is now known by a different registration number, a personalised plate.
I can see why the ANPR pings as no insurance but not how the man or his car can, as a matter of fact, be uninsured.
I'd say he needs to contest the no insurance and speak calmly to his insurers about the involvement of the Ombudsman.
Edited by Optimist on 27/03/2009 at 22:30
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My insurance certificate says that I am covered to drive a model of car with the registration mark xxyyxxx.
So I can see where the problems might start .....
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Make contact with your Insurance Co.
Acquaint them with the circumstances and the fact it was the same car but the VRM was different through cherish number change.
Ask them if they would be prepared to give you written confirmation that they would have considered themselves to be 'at risk' in relation to the use when 'pinged'.
If the will do so then write in to reject the FPN, why, and elect a Court hearing and enter a Not Guilty plea.
If it goes to Court produce written confirmation use woukld have been covered.
If Insurance Co not prepared to issue lettter conside accepting FPN - a costly punishment for your error.
dvd
(the bigot)
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Don't be modest DVD - bigoted, ill informed, AND reactionary. :-0
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I think my friend's dad contacted the insurer on his behalf and they seemed to pretty much wash their hands of it, not wanting to get involved.
Interestingly, he told me that the letter they sent advising they didn't want to renew his insurance at renewal did not say they were cancelling the insurance forthwith, so I would presume this means they view the policy as still in force.
It seems like he needs to speak to a solicitor. Spending a couple of hundred quid for good advice is well worth it if there's even a modest chance of getting a not guilty in court.
I already have points myself from a SP30 and if I was hit by this problem (I wouldn't touch a 'cherished' reg no with a 10 foot pole!) I would definitely have seeked legal advice and challenged the FP notice, even at the risk of losing and paying a few hundred quid more overall.
I was mainly wondering if
a) an offence has actually been commited as per the Road Traffic Act, and
b) if there is any precedent known to the BR of a similar case at court.
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I was mainly wondering if
c) Does the original Reg. continue to remain allocated to the Seat at the DVLA, and revert to the Seat when the cherished number is taken off it?
Edited by jbif on 28/03/2009 at 11:38
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I think when you remove a private reg, the original one is reinstated - my old Civic had a private reg with its previous owner and the original reg no at new was the same as that on the car when i bought it.
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Technically the Insurance certificate will state that the vehicle will be ABC 123 but in fact the vehicle registered is 123ABC so that Insurance will not cover 123ABC. In essence then No Insurance.
The terms and conditions by the Ins Co will state that they should be told of a change in VRM this wasn't done.
Yet in reality this is not a 'fiddle' merely an administrative error - its the same car but under a different plate.
Seems to me the Insurance Company are being poverty striken.
Cannot find any case law on similar circumstances in my meagre library/notes. Understand that PU has a better one.
dvd
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As previously mentioned, speak to the insurer about it being the same car - there is no change of vehicle and no change of risk. If they won't assist go to the Ombudsman. I'd do all this before spending money at a solicitors as it's all they'll do for you. Enter a NG plea in the meantime and even if you can't get confirmation from the insurer you can at least put decent mitigation forward.
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As I understand this the OP has been "done" for driving without insurance. However if he has fully comp. insurance surely that covers him to drive any car irrespective of its reg. number. My insurance certainly does.
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... However if he has fully comp. insurance surely that covers him to drive any car irrespective of its reg. number. My insurance certainly does. >>
Haven't got mine to hand, but it says something like "other car NOT owned by insured".
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It occurs to me that if the insurance company won't confirm the personal plate car was covered at the time of the ANPR incident, they need to answer the question: what car was at risk and in respect of which they had taken the premium?
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It occurs to me that if the insurance .... in respect of which they had taken the premium? >>
Agreed. I think of it this way:
Supposing I have a personal accident policy.
Say I then change my name by deed poll but forget to tell the insurance company.
Say I then have an accident and injure myself.
Does the insurance company say that although I am who I am biologically, I am no longer covered because my name has changed?
The car's DNA are its engine and chassis numbers, linked together by the DVLA with a "name" by giving it a Reg No.
AFAIK, that reg. no. stays with the car even when it is changed using a cherished number.
I think there is something fishy about this matter, and we do not know the full story, specially as the Insurer is indicating that they do not want this person's business in future. It would be helpful for that person to tell the facts first hand rather than relayed to us via Lygonos.
Edited by jbif on 28/03/2009 at 19:39
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Didn't we have a similar thread and discussion over someone whose Certificate had the wrong registration on???
As I see it the premium which the insurance company have taken was based around several factors one being, make and model of the vehicle in question not the registration number. The registration number only identifies that particular vehicle. Although it does need to be right on certificates and databases for obvious reasons.
Surely the person having all the issues has a paper trail of the cherished transfer with all the relevant documents? Proof of insurance can be produced at any time before proceedings are commenced (the 7 day rule is not strictly correct).
I really cannot see what the issue is with the insurance company if everything is above board. Don't they even charge a fee these days for any alteration in conditions/details to the policy?
Indeed strange that they do not want the business at renewal. Why?????
Edited by Fullchat on 28/03/2009 at 19:59
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Yes, I wonder. I've encountered this before (car not apparently on the database, cherished plate put on) and the insurer has agreed the insurance by checking the VIN. It certainly satisfied me and seems the common sense approach. Can the original poster be sure he/she has the full facts?
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I am suspicious the refusal to renew is because my friend is 25 and if he gets another 6 points will be on 9 points. I'm not sure which company he is with, but that's not the important part if he challenges the FP notice - has an offence actually been commited? maybe the CAB would be a better bet than a lawyer initially from the cost point of view?
I can't see how in court it can be proven he had no valid insurance, as the insurer has not withdrawn it despite being made aware of recent events. The VIN/engine number applicable to the car as originally insured are no different that at the time of taking out the insurance.
As far as I am aware, not informing the insurance company of changes to a car does not amount to "driving without insurance" until the policy has been cancelled (eg. if a boy racer adds phat alloys and a bodykit but doesn't inform the insurance company - the Police can't charge with driving w/o insurance).
I'll certainly keep the BR informed of whatever transpires.
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