My ghastly Espace did this 3 times in my ownership in 6 years due to poor 'design' and unsuitable materials. Fortunately on the espace the cylinder was external but it sounds like the slave cylinder on your car could be concentric and will require removal of gearbox to replace. Its also likely that you have a DMF which should be checked and replaced if suspect. Valeo do a number of clutch kits now which do away with the DMF replacing it with a solid version. If the 'box is coming out you're going to be changing the clutch as a matter of course so worth investigating.
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Hi all,
Thanks for the information and help.
TBH, I don't even want to spend £150 on a clutch kit if its not necessary, although given the fluid everywhere it'll be a miracle if the plates didn't get soaked in the stuff. SWMBO is already making noises that she might want rid of it once it's back up and running. Whether this is just anger / disappointment at yesterday's events, or whether it's deeper seeted, I don't know, but it's her car so ultimately her decision.
It's been a good car to us in the two years we've had it, but it is also a fact that it's the first car we've owned (including some tragic, £200 starship mileage jalopies) to actually let us down at the roadside, so we're not used to this kind of thing. What got me was the complete lack of warning / symptoms. If the clutch had been acting up for a while, then it would have been one thing, but it was driving perfectly this time yesterday.
There was also a Pug 206 broken down on the same roundabout at the same time - a cracking advert for French cars! It was an irony not unappreciated by both sets of owners and provided a welcome light hearted moment. ;-)
Andrew - what are the implications of changing the DMF for a solid item? Surely, it's there for a reason (apart from revenue for parts departments).
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Interesting chat with the local Renault specialist indie who is probably going to be tasked with putting it right (mate can't fit it in for a while). He can't be sure until he looks at it, but he thinks given the lack of symptoms and the rate at which it's dumping fluid (pour it in and it comes straight out the bottom) it could just be a pipe failure which he's seen before on the Scenic II. The pipe in question is £35 and it's an hours labour to fit it, and bleed the system.
Of course it could still be a master cylinder / gearbox out, but he reckons the Scenic II's aren't that prone to master cylinder failure. He's not ruling it out, but seems confident.
Towing it down there later. Will keep you posted.
Also SWMBO has decided she wants it gone, so it'll be up for sale as soon as it's fixed. She's fallen in love with her dad's mkIV Golf PD130 which she's running around in at the moment. Given that we no longer strictly need an MPV, it's food for thought.
Thoughts at the moment are to flog the Renault for say £4.5k, spend £3.5k on a tidy mkIV Golf GT TDI 130, and use the balance to pay for the repairs on the Renault, or stick a bit in the bank. We end up with a slightly older car, but knowing a VW tech has massive advantages when it comes to servicing and repair. Also the way this PD engine pulls with 130,000 miles on the clock is a massive confidence boost.
It's all a bit up in the air though. Need to get it fixed first. And sold for sensible money.
Cheers
DP
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Given the recent keying incident, and now this I can understand your wifes position. It must seem like the car has suddenly been cursed.
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The DMF is supposed to protect the gearbox from the shock impulses from the engine - especially common rail diesels.
Remove it at your peril. You may get away with it, you may not.
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It's at the garage know. Will know in the morning what's occurred, but they still seem to think it's pipework rather than the master cylinder. I really hope they're right.
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Hydraulic pipe has chafed through and there's fluid dripping from the bellhousing. Looks like a double whammy.
They're pricing up the bits, but we're looking at somewhere around a grand including a new clutch kit.
Gutted! :-(
Cheers
DP
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Um, thought it might have been a pipe. Surely the bell housing/gearbox does not have to come off. If not, worth changing pipe and trying it? Don't think a small amount of brake fluid will have done nasties to the clutch plates.
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I am getting this second hand from SWMBO - I wasn't phoneable yesterday. I will talk to the guy this morning. Very reasonable garage with excellent word of mouth and good reviews on local trade websites, so I trust them.
Will keep you all informed.
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I dont think its a simple as just changine a pipe. On the Espace the slave cylinder and pipe and master cylinder are a one piece affair.
Gallic flair anyone?
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OK, had a chat with the guy today. Very straight and honest. There is a slight seep on the pipework (it chafes on the gearbox - nice design), but the main leak is from the bellhousing, which is what I thought I saw when I had a nose underneath. This was a catastrophic failure, as the fluid literally pours onto the road in a second or two if you top up the reservoir.
Then he tells me that had it been a five speed 'box, they can get the transmission out without disturbing the subframe, but being the longer six speeder, it doesn't come out without dropping the frame. Reckons about 8 hrs work involved all in, plus 'a couple of hundred quid' for the bits - they can't start it 'til tomorrow so he's ringing me before with the total and to get authorisation.
While this goes on, SWMBO are arguing what to replace it with. Life is fun!
Cheers
DP
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Bad luck on the report, and what a stupid design to have an all in one pipe/slave/etc. DMF to worry about too.
I have thought for a while that the economies of running a diesel look good on paper, until about mid life when your sort of problem happens and worry about DMF, turbo and ancillaries going bang, injector life. Seems what you have saved in fuel more than goes into a huge repair bill.
I had a Renault where the back axle had to be dropped (well swung down to be fair) which added to a bill for an exhaust. stupid design.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 05/03/2009 at 00:21
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MK3 Cortinas were like that. Replacement exhausts had an additional joint to overcome the problem.
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The complete unit is in one piece takes about 20mins to fit and cost around £30 common fault on lagunas and if I remember correctly the part is made in Brasil.
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Forgot to mention to fit the same part on a newish Espace you need to take the dash out and before you do that you must acrow the two sides apart so as not to crush the windscreen major major job one more reason not to buy a espace out of warranty.
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The complete unit is in one piece takes about 20mins to fit and cost around £30
Exactly what we were told as the hopeful cause of the problem when we took it in there. He said 20 mins to fit, and 40 to bleed - they're a swine apparently.
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£950. New clutch fitted, DMF was in good nick, so not changed. Replaced hydraulic pipe as well, and also found and changed a split driveshaft gaiter.
They've driven it round the yard, and it seems fine, but the guy wants to do a longer test drive from cold tomorrow morning, after which we can pick it up.
Will be in Autotrader this weekend.
Cheers
DP
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"£950. New clutch fitted,"
Ouch! Any feed back on the failure mode? Sounds like the release bearing went through (or pulled out of - or is it only PSA that use pull clutches??) the cover plate, causing the end of the slave cylinder to pop out. Sounds like a lot of cash - labour charges must be high in your end of the country, else the clutch is gold plated!
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Yes, they think it was release bearing failure which instigated the problem. Whatever it was, it went with a hell of a bang and very suddenly!
Parts came to £250, labour £700. Yes, we're in the South East, so the £80 p/h we paid is actually cheap! Could have probably shopped around, but these guys came highly recommended. They didn't charge us for the driveshaft gaiter they changed either - the guy actually said they wouldn't have the nerve!
It does show that DMFs aren't necessarily unreliable I suppose. 61,000 miles and ours was "perfect". The clutch friction material was about 70% worn.
SWMBO is picking it up later, so will let you know how it goes.
Cheers
DP
Edited by DP on 06/03/2009 at 08:43
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Having spent so much on it, is it not best to keep it to recover some of the cost?
There's probably another 40000 miles left in it yet.
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