Ouch. £2,200 work on a car that's probably not actually worth any more than that.
particularly had they diagnosed the original head gasket fault in a timely manner.
>>They did not advise me against using the car, so I continued to drive it over 100
>>miles per day before the head gasket failure was finally diagnosed.
That's really annoying, but probably you cannot get them on that point. You have no contract with them to keep your car on the road.
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How on God's green earth can anybody justify charging £700 for a fuel punp? Fit it for free? I should think so... a Ferrari 308 fuel pump can be had for £70. I'd strongly recommend independent specialist advice. Somebody is clearly having a (very expensive) laugh. Hope you get it sorted MW
cc
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How on God's green earth can anybody justify charging £700 for a fuel punp?
Peril of the modern diesel. Some of them are 2 grand. I gather Astra diesels are frequently written off at a few years old by fuel pump failure.
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If that's the case it's a ridiculous state of affairs. Scrapping a car because of the cost of a replacement part is something that should only happen if the car is only worth a few hundred quid. Diesel "economy". Some people will do anything to save money, no matter what it costs
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How on God's green earth can anybody justify charging £700 for a fuel punp?
I think even a Ford Focus diesel pump (bought from Ford) is well over £700, so this price for a Toyota item doesn't sound too bad.
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Thanks all - extra info/questions:
The garage is a Nationwide Autocentre - they're ok guys and we've used them for a couple of years - I don't think they're ripping me off in that sense.
The £700 price for the part does seem to be correct.
My main concern/question now is - what can cause fuel pump failure? Are they really right in saying that the overheating of the engine could have caused it - if not, what else could it have been?
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I don't think cheap supermarket fuel does diesel pumps any favours. Supermarket petrol isn't brilliant either, something to do with lack of detergents
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"I don't think cheap supermarket fuel does diesel pumps any favours."
Total nonsense.
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I may be mistaken and apologies if I'm wrong, but I'm sure HJ has mentioned that supermarket diesel lacks lubricity for modern diesel pumps?
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I may be mistaken and apologies if I'm wrong but I'm sure HJ has mentioned that supermarket diesel lacks lubricity for modern diesel pumps?
www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=46 ?
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HJ wrote in that link Feedback is that BP Ultimate diesel is the best diesel giving smoother running, more power and better economy to justify its higher price. Greenergy City Diesel sold by some supermarkets has the necessary lubricity. Shell Diesel Extra was good but had now been replaced by Shell V-Power diesel, as unwise a piece of branding as Ultimate diesel because it can lead to confusion between petrol and diesel at the pumps.
Shell Optimax 98Ron was the best petrol, giving better performance and economy for most (though not all) cars. This has now been replaced by Shell V-Power 99Ron part bioethanol which is even better. Shell and Texaco petrol traditionally had the best detergent packages, but BP Ultimate petrol now has a good one too, and Esso has also introduced a high detergent petrol. Lack of detergent and a high proportion of short runs from cold is what causes most petrol engine fuel system problems, so if you buy your petrol from a supermarket seek written assurance that it at least meets and preferably far exceeds the British Standard for detergent in petrol.
Totally unsubstantiated; no peer-reviewed scientific research, merely apparently on the basis of say-so presumably by some punters who need to convince themselves that the extra 5p per litre they pay for Optimax is worth it. Entirely advertising spin until proved otherwise. All the petrol comes from the same (few) place(s), some has some snake oil added.
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And worst of all, the discussion is/was about diesel, which is quite lubricating enough as it is, with no need for additives. Why else would generations of mechanics have used it to free seized nuts?
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The lubricity additive is added at the refinery to all diesel.
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HJ wrote in that link Lack of detergent and a high proportion of short runs from cold is what causes most petrol engine fuel system problems so if you buy your petrol from a supermarket seek written assurance that it at least meets and preferably far exceeds the British Standard for detergent in petrol.
That's a very strange statement from HJ. Petrol pumps usually state that the fuel is to the relevant BS/EN and, in any case, I would imagine that its illegal to retail fuel which does not meet British Standard.
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I guess the point is that all fuels MEET the BS, but some may contain other ingredients which EXCEED the BS.
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As VR6 says, there are limitations to the BS EN 590. Here is a trade article re additives: tinyurl.com/58qrhc The World Wide Fuels Charter (WWFC) has made the point in the past that EN 590 does not require certain additives, e.g. detergents. For the 2006 edition of the WWFC, the role of additives re injector cleanliness is explained at pp 48 and 49. Lack of additives may mean injector failure. Ref: tinyurl.com/6yb454 I don't know whether EN 590 has been amended to require a certain level of additisation. Perhaps someone in the trade may know.
Edited by nortones2 on 15/12/2008 at 11:45
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I was looking at a clutch change earlier this year and researched the service centre involved in this case. Sadly what has happened to your Yaris is fairly typical of the stories I found. They really seem to be geared up to menu priced services plus brake pads and the like. I would not say they are specialists in engine dismantling and complex diesel issues.
Your car may have had cooling issues but it was running and now it doesn't. They've done something daft and the hard part seems to be them working out what that was and then admitting to it.
Sadly it is very rare for a garage to say sorry we've broken xyz but no problem we'll replace it at our cost and here's a loan car while we do the job!
David
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Nationwide Autocentres are Jack of all Trades and Master of None. They won't look at my FAP equipped PSA car as they do not have equipment, never mind the knowledge, to deal with it. I can't imagine how you thought that they could deal with your car better or cheaper, in the long run, than a Toyota dealer. Very sorry to hear of the escalating expense involved though! SAAB diesel pump £1800!
Supermarket and all other diesel fuels sold in the UK comply with the applicable BS (British Standard) so by definition should be suitable for any car.
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To their credit, but mostly because I argued with them, they have given me a loan car until it's resolved.
Is there really any possibility of an overheating engine causing a fuel pump failure? That's the only thing I can dispute with them - I can't dispute that it's broken.
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Could be something simple, like failure to prime the fuel system and the fuel pump. Did they check for fuel flow before starting? Repeated attempts to run a dry fuel pump, as a consequence of air in system, might account for the pumps demise. It relies on the fuel for lubrication. Just a thought.
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ALmost certainly they have failed to prime the fuel pump and run the pump when dry.
And completely pink fluffy dice it.
Frankly I would NOT give anyone the job of rebuilding a Toyota diesel engine - except a Toyota main dealer.
The people you are using are clearly not competent.
You should therfore look to:
1 removing it
2. taking it to a Toyota dealer who is competent
and
3. recouping your money from the original people.
There are important legal issues involved: I am not competent.. so ask others for advice..
And yes : I own a Yaris diesel too.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 10/12/2008 at 12:43
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Are you sure £700 is the cost of the fuel pump I think they have put the decimal point in the wrong place the man who does for me reckons £90 fitted.Of course they are nice to you and OK guys they have their hands in your pocket its time to visit Trading Standards.
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Are you sure £700 is the cost of the fuel pump I think they have put the decimal point in the wrong place the man who does for me reckons £90 fitted.Of course they are nice to you and OK guys they have their hands in your pocket its time to visit Trading Standards.
I phoned a Toyota parts centre and asked them how much a fuel pump would be - they quoted £770 incl VAT.
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I have a friend who's offered to go down there and have a look at it for me on Friday - he agrees with the comments here about it not being primed properly or some other problem along that line.
Had I known that a simple engine overheating light was going to result in all this nonsense, I would most certainly have taken it off their hands and taken it to a Toyota dealership instead!
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Megwump do you 100% know the injector pump is broken???
All you know is that a third party they called in says it is. Does his test equipment say that or has the pump been off to a diesel specialist for test? If it is just his tester saying that, or an assumption he has come to, perhaps there is still the possibility of a broken or displaced wiring connector damaged during the head job.
And I wonder what the phrase "we're unable to get it running on its own fuel supply" means... that they've tried eazi-start??
David
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The water pumps new are £25 on ebay including postage.
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Genuine OEM fuel pumps on Ebay £70 and complete diesel engines low mileage for well under £400.They are taking the !!!!
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AB - are you talking about a fuel pump, or an injector pump?
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He is talking fuel pump does he mean injector pump.If its the injector pump try this they are very good.www.dieselbob.co.uk/injectionparts.shtml
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'My main concern/question now is - what can cause fuel pump failure? Are they really right in saying that the overheating of the engine could have caused it - if not, what else could it have been?'
Diesel fuel pump faliures are always down to one thing, namely fuel contamination, ie water , dirt , petrol in the diesel. I would not like to say for certain, but it seems likely that this could well happened while the car was being worked on. To be honest with you,some of these Autocentres are far from experts, i obviously can't comment on your local branch, but be certain they don't ride into work on horseback wearing stetsons ;)
... seriously though, you shouldn't really have to pay for ANY unecassary work done to your car, they should hold their hands up, and put your car right at no extra cost other than to the engine damage you! diagnosed. The reality is, this in all probability would not have happened if you had your car repaired at a Toyota centre, and i would wager that the cost of the actual repair would not be too far different from the nationwide autocentres, and they give it a cast iron warranty.
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Sooo....my mate went down and had a chat with them and the fuel pump has definitely had it. We've agreed that they'll get the pump rebuilt rather than buy new, which is £350.
I want my car back and running, so I've told them to do the work but I've said that I'm going to get the case reviewed. I believe them when they say the water pump had failed when I first took it to them - but I suspect that the water pump failure was caused by the overheating engine, which was actually a symptom of the head gasket having started to go at that point. The fact that they didn't diagnose the underlying head gasket failure (the symptom - overheating indicator coming on - did not go away when they replaced the water pump) for another two trips into the garage would have directly led to the fuel pump failure (which hadn't failed until it went into the garage) and probably the cylinder head cracking, because it had been driven around with an underlying and undiagnosed fault. Therefore - they should bear the additional cost i.e. cylinder head and fuel pump and I should bear the cost of the water pump and head gasket. Is this a reasonable argument?
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Of course you could read the sequence of events any way round but what about the head getting a small crack that allowed loss of coolant which in turn caused overheating that allowed coolant to be blown past the cooling pump and leading to head gasket failure.... then at the final visit the garage messed up your pump somehow when doing the work.
Or a coolant pump leak that caused overheating blowing the head gasket and finally cracking the head.... then at the final visit the garage messed up your pump somehow when doing the work.
You have obviously had overheating issues which may never be proved one way or another and you will likley have to pay for.... but something suspicious has happened to the injector pump and I think that is the bit you should concentrate on refusing to pay for.
David
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I don't know about Toyota but Ford certainly stated in the past in the driver's manual"Do not drive a diesel if the overheating light comes on".This is because excess heat will cause the injectors to fail!!!
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This is why I try to agree a price to fix a problem, rather than to replace a part. I record the conversation on my mobile phone. Then if it goes awry, I can say the problem is not fixed and get the money back from the VISA card issuer if not from the garage.
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"I have been to-ing and fro-ing with my garage since September, which started with the overheating light"
If you`ve been driving it 100 miles a day since September Meg, despite overheating warning lights - there may be an argument that you largely wrecked the engine yourself. (i`m sorry to say)
Perhaps its knowing the difference between garages?
When they have sorted it, I would drive it straight to PX - for a car that`s either new, or has been worked on by the main dealer. I write that because sometimes its good to cut your losses and get out ASAP before it all fails again.
I was once `trapped` by a failed engine - little garage rebuild. At a time when work pressures didn`t allow me time to do it myself, or to bring an action against them. I wouldn`t say I actually coasted 5 miles later onto a dealers forecourt, to PX for a new one. But it wasn`t far off.
Wishing you well with the problem, hope its soon sorted.
Edited by oilrag on 15/12/2008 at 16:32
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A little knowledge can be more dangerous than none! sounds to me like they would of been better off sending you to a good indy or a dealer. Horses for courses I think the saying goes!
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Yee ha runs to mind.
Wrong place, wrong car imo.
Fastfits are good for fast fitting of parts, not for diagnosis and repairing of anything mechanical. And despite their marketing, thats all they are imo.
Hope trading standards can help you because they have firmly planted their grubby mits inside your wallet.
maybe ask to see the qualifications of their workers and of their "specialist" ? Then ask them to put the reasons for their diagnosis and actions into writing for you, step by step.
Any honourable garage would do that for you.
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Hi MegWump,
I own a yaris 2 D4d, however I used to take my last car a Nissan Micra to Nationwide Autos. I stopped using them when they started doing unecessary work . It was almost as cheap to let Nissan do the work. Sorry to be the bringer of bad news and goodluck with the yaris.
Sheldon
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