Not sure if this should have gone in one of Marks speeding threads but not totally up to date with the Fora yet.
BTW Toad is my fiver safe re your trip to Wales??
What would you have done in the following situation, and would appreciate input from m`learned friends of the legal world.
UK motorway, 3 lane NSL.
Road works, warning signs for 50 limit, count down markers etc followed by the proper speed limit sign, red circle, black 50 white background. (Just so you know not an advisory limit in force)
Get to the end of the physical road works, no more cones, clearly displayed road works end sign, Highways agency sorry sign plus the cones hot line phone number or whatever it is called today. Noteworthy was the complete absence of a National Speed Limit sign.
Everyone lifts speed back up, including me.
No more than a mile down the road, sign road works in 2 miles etc. This time no 50 signs, repeaters, nothing. Get to the end of the second road works, clearly shown is an NSL sign. !!!! Hmmmm!
Without looking at the speed order in force this tends to indicate that the 50 applied all the way from the first road works to the end of the second.
Question 1, what would you have done? Personally I bottled it when I realised there was a second set of works and slowed down to max 50.
Question 2 If there had been enforcement, be it electronic or organic, after the first set of road works would there have been any sensible plea in mitigation available?
Discuss.
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Tricky! This does sound like a mess. Plus, you do get MWay road works without speed limits. certainly grounds for mitigation!
I'd have probably done as you did, but didn't this one come up in Ripley's column a while back? He claimed that the 'end of road works' sign wasn't the end of the speed limit, and that it needed the NSL sign. However, a week later he printed a correction to this, stating that the 'end of road works' sign was sufficient but I can't remember the grounds for the change.
Is it perhaps that the repeater signs for the lower limit should appear at maximum intervals?
Regards
John S
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My memory (ropey at the best of times) of the Ripley article was that he said strictly speaking the NSL sign was needed, but that it would be reasonable to believe that it was missing unintentionally in the circumstances. Therefore the likelyhood of getting pulled was minimal. I may be wrong!
I would probably have driven at about 70 (indicated) through the new roadworks, so that at least I would be seen by any observant rozzer to be properly respecting the NSL and would have sufficient reaction time to slow to an indicated 60 for any camera.
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BTW Toad is my fiver safe re your trip to Wales??
It did 720 miles happy, but I didn't put the Diesel in. Bottled it - may still try it!
As for your 50 limit. I'm 70pc sure that other than NSL or 30's all roads require repeater signs.
If there are no repeaters it must be a 30 or NSL and therefore not a 50.
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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Was this on the M6? If so, then going north last Tuesday afternoon I kept to 50, despite many cars streaming past in the outer lanes and complaints from my wife. Going south on Sunday I decided to go with the flow. But I think they ought to make it clear.
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In many places they take the roadworks signs down every weekend but don't remove the limit signs.
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Sounds like you're talking about the M6 north from junction 19. Yes?
Went up here yesterday. As I passed the Knutsford services, Plod came out of the slip and drove on my left. When we exited the roadworks she pulled into lane 3 and speeded up to about 75, despite the absence of a NSL sign. Everyone else followed her example.
Strictly speaking the limit remains at 50 unless there is another sign to the contrary. A mate got pulled between two sets of works on the M42 about 3 yrs ago for just this point. Despite the works being about 6 miles apart the limit was 50 all the way!!! Dibble, of course, took full advantage to improve his pull rates.
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Was there a junction between the two sets of roadworks? If so, the limit must end before them, or traffic joining the motorway would have a different speed limit from that already travelling along it.
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Combining answers to John M, Cyd and Robert F. not in that order though.
Definitely no junction between the two sets.
I'm not sure where it was to be honest. I thought it was on the M5 heading south in Gloucestershire-ish, but have been in a few countries since then. Plus having covered this bit in the last few days I got to the road works and all seemed exactly as I remembered it except the NSL sign at the end of the 2nd set had disappeared. Plus it had not been moved to the end of the first set so I give up. M6 is a possibility too I guess.
I have to say though that having covered quite a few miles in quite a few countries over the last few months, UK was noticeable for two things. The amount of speed enforcement going on, and the appalling conditions of road repair.
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In order for a speed limit below NSL to be legally enforceable repeater signs must be displayed at regular intervals. I do not know what those intervals are, or indeed if there are specified distances. The only exception is on a 30 limit, when there is street lighting. This indicates a built up area where a 30mph limit is in force unless otherwise indicated.
The police have lost speeding convictions where a motorist has been able to show that repeater signs were not in evidence.
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You will find that an Order has to be made to cover roadworks on a Trunk Road, Motorway etc and this not only stipulates any lane closures but also what speed restriction will apply. The Order will stipulate over what length of road is actually involved.
Road works, including the speed restriction, has to be signed in accordance with Traffic Signs and General Directions Act 1994
( its on the web but unfortunately the sign legends are not just the number - See S9 and 10 of Part II for speed and repeaters)
As far as I am aware the end of Roadworks sign does not superceed in authority the NSL sign so the limit remains in force until this is passed. But you say what if this is missing?
Then the speed limit is illegal as it is not signed in accordance with the Order/Speed restriction as required.
DVD
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Then the speed limit is illegal as it is not signed in accordance with the Order/Speed restriction as required.
Does the NSL 70 technically apply in such cases?
Ie) Where there's no legal signing can I do 70 or 170?
There's miles of rural 40mph limit round here with no repeaters.
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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Sorry Toad.
The Order for the roadworks knocks out the NSL to a lower one decided, but if the works are nor signed in accordance with the speed for the works as mentioned in TSGD then the knockout punch has not landed and you revert to the NSL.
Re the non repeater for the 40, query it with the Traffic Management Section of your local Highways I want to sit and laze in the sun while its here instead of head in book.
Go out and catch flies will you there's a good chap.
I gather you enjoyed Wales? Tottie any good?
DVD
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Let me try to get this straight; ……….we are driving on the m-way. We approach roadworks. The speed limit is marked as 50 at the start of the works and it is repeated at intervals within the works. We exit the works. There is an end-of-works sign, but no NSL sign.
Is the speed limit through the works illegal because it is not properly marked (ie no NSL sign at end).
OR
Does the 50 limit remain in force until such time as you pass through another limit sign???
OR
As Ripley suggests, would the limit stand up in court (even if it is illegal) because the sign is inadvertantly missing?
If the 50 limit is not legal does this mean it is not enforceable?
Of course, none of this detracts from the spirit of the 50 limit – that of everyones safety within the works (motorists & workers alike).
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slightly off-topic, but I spotted an amusing mistake the other week:
roadworks appeared on the Oxford ring road one morning with a temporary 50 mph speed limit expanded to take in a link road into town. The link road is wide with good visibility and no side roads, so the planner had reasonably assumed it was NSL.
It took two days for someone to realise that they had unwittingly increased the speed limit on the link road by 20 mph ! Just shows how counter-intuitive many limits are now.
(PS why have some of the posts in this thread got symbols mixed in, Martyn? Stephen?)
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Reckon forum computer has limited command of alphabet and prints codes for some letters.
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Something to do with cutting and pasting from Word, so I understand.
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Yes it is - I use word because my typing is so slow that if I do it directly into the box, then when I press post I loose it and have to log back on again.
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Yes it is - I use word because my typing is so slow that if I do it directly into the box, then when I press post I loose it and have to log back on again.
Pressing the preview button should reveal any wonky text before you actually submit the message. You can then edit it out.
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Cyd
The speed restiction for roadworks will be covered in the Order made by D of T/Local Authority. The length of road involved will also be covered i.e. 100 yards north of Junction A to a point 75 yards south of junction B.
It could define a section of road sufficient to cover two sets of separate works.
The Order should stipulate the signing in relation to the speed limit at its start and end in accordance with TSGD.
My understanding has always been that if the limit has not been signed correctly in accordance with the Order i.e. that if no derestriction sign to NSL at the end of the works (defined length of road) has been erected (not merely blown over or vandalised) then the limit through the works is illegal and cannot be enforced and NSL applies.
I am supported in this by S 85 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 which lays down the duty to erect signs (30)on BUA roads without street lighting and that drivers cannot be convicted unless said signs are present.
Likewise, in answer to Toad's query re 40 MPH earlier :
Restricted road (30)is where there is provided a system of street lighting not more than 200 yards apart. (S82 RTRA 1984)
30 will not apply on a restricted road if signs are erected at intervals to show not so restricted.NSL signs or Order.(S85 RTRA 1984).Absence of such signs on a restricted road means 30 applies
40 mph can be on a restricted road by Order made and if street lighting present then repeater signs have to be erected.
Out in the open country without street lighting then there appears to be no need for repeaters. Perhaps Toad can confirm the unsigned (repeater) 40's he mentions are indeed without lights at the prescribed distance.
The above does not take into account any recent precedent/
Case Law that Pug Ugly/Midlifecrises may be aware of through access to J.P's/AELR etc.
DVD
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Hi
Just a quick query.
What is the regulation on the type of speed limit signs?
Does it have to be the red circle limit signs or can yellow rectangular signs stating the maximum speed? Also if there is no NSL sign at the end, does that mean that any conviction for disobeying the limit would be invalid?
Thanks
Jonathan
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Re the non repeater for the 40, query it with the Traffic Management Section of your local Highways I want to sit and laze in the sun while its here instead of head in book.
- I can't say I blame you!
Go out and catch flies will you there's a good chap.
- That's just made me larf out loud.
I gather you enjoyed Wales? Tottie any good?
- Sadly no luck at all, except a on night stop-off at Newport which doesn't count. To quote the Prince Regent. Women are like socks. There's loads of 'em about but I never get any. ;-(
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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FiF
I have checked the highway code and the sign for end of roadworks states "end of road works and an y temporary restrictions".
It would appear therefore that there is no actual requirement for an NSL sign.
Regards
Jonathan
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J
Cannot find your reference in HC (my copy 1993 and that on the Net)
Checked (quickly) 147, 177, 54 -56 no mention.
In the signs section there are only two signs in relation to speed limits giving orders ( that they must be obeyed):
(1) Max speed sign (universal)
(2) National Speed Limit applies (which we oldies tend to call the destriction sign).
DVD
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Thanks J,
DVD here is the link, I think this is enough to have a suitable mitigating plea
www.roads.dft.gov.uk/roadsafety/hc/signs08.shtml
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FiF/Johnathan
The start of any speed restriction is signed by a sign giving an order, i.e.circular and red rimmed.
This is the same for 30, 40,50 etc.
The end of a speed limit back to National Speed Limit is shown by the white circular sign with black band.
The start of temporary speed limit for roadworks is the circular 50.
It is logical that at the end of the temporary roadworks then as the NSL again applies then there should be such a sign.
Such has been my understanding.
Taking on board your arguement I have made further research and contacted my County Council Traffic Management Dept who have responsibility for A1 Trunk Road and Motorway within the County.
In their Road Signing Bible it is stated that the end of road works can be signed with Road Works Sign accompanied with rectangular End sign. This not only covers the end of the road works but ALSO THE END OF THE TEMPORARY SPEED LIMIT which to me is illogical.
Sirs, therefore you are correct and I WRONG.
DVD.
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Like you DVD I was totally convinced in my belief that it needed the NSL sign, black diagonal on white circular sign, to mark the end of a lower limit, be that a permanent or temporary situation.
IT just goes to show that life gets even more complicated and thanks to Jonathan for pointing out my lack of knowledge of the HC, even though we have two copies of the latest edn in our house and read not so long ago either. (don't ask why two copies, it would lead to an embarrassing explanation followed by a Homer Simspon like DOH!)
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