My CDTI Vectra looks unlikely to last past 90k without some wopping bills. My old tddi Focus did much better.
So, as I still need a diesel to cope with the mileage etc, are there any cars (I'm looking at 3 years old or younger) that have a non common rail diesel?
I know the old TDDI focus engine was slagged by the motoring press, but it was less troublesome that the vectra common rail (or perhaps any common rail judging by some of the comments on here!)
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>>without some wopping bills
What bills are these? Who has told you that the work is required?
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VAG PD is still available across the entire VAG range of vehicles. I was in an A4 taxi at the weekend - a 1.9TDi with 190,000 on the clock and it sounded to be running perfectly.
My dad has taken two Fiesta 1.4 TDCis to well past 100k - his first is now close to 130,000.
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I had a ride in a friend's Citroen BX last night. 270,000 (genuine, they've had it from new) on the clock, still pulls well, and the ride puts every other car on the road to shame. Even speed bumps are smoothed out.
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>>. 270,000 (genuine, they've had it from new) on the clock
Do you know many people in the habit of clocking mileages UP????!!!!???!
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Within the age range you are considering the VAG PD is the only non common rail unit widely available. Of the options available, go for the 8 valve 1.9 unit, avoiding the 150 PS variant.
I am a well satisfied user of a 130 PS AWX engine. Make sure you are prepared to give the engine the maintenance it requires (oil, cambelts) and that the refinement is adequate. In a large-bodied car, I have no problems with this whatever.
Seat, Skoda, WV or Audi badges are available according to taste.
659.
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Well the current bills relate more to the DMF and gearbox, and an intermittent fault with an injector.
My desire for a non common rail stems from the appalling reputation they have for big bills at higher mileages (with obvious exceptions - as listed here!) and their complicated nature puts off a lot of indy garages.
I haven't noticed a big advantage of CR over non CR in general use either
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The gearbox is likely to be the biggest by a mile of those, and that isn't CR/Non CR related... There are some failures and they have been blown up out of all proportion by being discussed to death on various forums, hence a very small number of them escalates to a "very large percentage!" - talk about Chinese whispers!!
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I haven't noticed a big advantage of CR over non CR in general use either
NVH is the CR's forte. They are quite simply massively quieter and smoother than a PD or a conventional rotary pump diesel, as well as significantly more powerful than the latter. Take your former Focus TDDi, churning out 90PS, when the same engine with common rail injection yields 125PS in the new Focus and S-Max, and is infinitely quieter and smoother.
I think it's fair to say that CR doesn't offer any significant power or economy advantage over the PD though.
Cheers
DP
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Cheers for the opinions. I know a lot of stuff about CR's will be scaremongering, but speaking to a couple of local mechanics also gives a clue about the costs involved.
Maybe its just Vauxhall CR diesels! Maybe I should try and find an old Focus tddi....
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Or an after market warranty?
I tried out the TDDi in a Focus and it was the most inflexible diesel engine I've ever driven... and that included a Corsa 1.5TD!
Edited by b308 on 12/11/2008 at 17:08
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As a matter of interest I drove a Toyota Corolla diesel est 1997 with 230k miles on, engine and g box smooth as you like, superb.
A brill common rail is the Isuzu 1.7CDTI as seen in Astras, Corsa, Meriva etc. This engine is pretty legendary for high mileages, was one I saw the old 1.7 DTI (which I have) still going strong in old Astra with 500k miles on, im not joking!!.
snipquote
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 12/11/2008 at 19:02
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"My CDTI Vectra looks unlikely to last past 90k without some wopping bills."
Perhaps you ought to consider a common rail then - our last 2 have done over 100k each and have had no bills whatsoever associated with the engine.
Our previous non-common rails did 170k and 140k each without having more that a couple of glowplugs replaced (by me - and I am non-mechanical) at a total cost of about 50 quid.
Is it the Vectra engine that is at fault rather than the common-rail/non common-rail factor??
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"I think it's fair to say that CR doesn't offer any significant power or economy advantage over the PD though."
Not yet it doesn't. VAG 2.0TDi CR will evolve from the current 140/170 PS version to ones developing in excess of 250, just like PD went from 90-150PS.
According to the dealer the VAG CR is easier to tweak for different EU taxation regimes.
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I am not technical on these matters like Screwloose et al but the common rail allows fine control over fuel injection therefore control over emissions. I hear that many EuroV compliant diesels are going to be less refined for a bit because they have to tune the engine for emissions. The new 2.0CDTi in the Insignia is an example of an engine being compromised for refinement.
I read/hear (as a non-technical engine lay person) that some of the injections of fuel that make the engine run smoother cannot happen to meet EuroV legislation.
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Without wishing to enter the territory of the specialist combustion technology engineers on here; I can't see CR being any more efficient that PD. Yes; it can do tricks like "12 squirts per bang" - but that isn't necessarily going to make it go any faster.
Ultimately; it's engine durability and acceptable life that limits specific output. The current emission necessities have already made diesels a joke and we may have already seen the peak of diesel desirability.
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I hope so. As a motorcyclist I'm getting fed up with getting lungs full of black soot.
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Wondered how long it would be before we were going to get comments like those... nothing to do with the OP, but what the heck....
Now if you are talking about taxis, TMS, especially black cabs, you have my full backing, they are long overdue for "cleaning up", but most modern diesel cars and, from what I've seen in the midlands, most modern diesel buses are very clean indeed when it comes to smoke from the rear...
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The PD is an excellent engine in my opinion and see hundreds of thousands of miles in taxis. Common Rail seems a lot more finicky to me although it may have the edge on refinement and costly when it goes wrong. I have yet to drive a 2.0 Common rail with the same sort of instant shove as the P.D in 130 bhp guiise.
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I guess emissions etc will force all diesels to be CR type eventually.
I don't think its just Vectra diesels that have a bad image (Ford TDCIs make a few mechanics suck their teeth!)
Its a shame as I've taken older Vauxhall petrols to 180k with only minor niggles, the diesel vectra has had more major problems in less than half that mileage - the opposite way around I would have thought
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I love the 130 PD engine too, and think it's a brilliant compromise between economy and performance.
However, I think the shove is down to clever mapping as much as anything else. There's a big dollop of pull on the initial inch of pedal travel and the first 3,000 RPM, after which extra revs and pedal travel do comparatively little.
Compare this to our similarly powered (Renault) common rail diesel, which definitely lacks the "zip" on light accelerator inputs and that lovely punch in the guts from idle, but is much more consistent and linear in its responses across the full rev range and the full travel of the accelerator pedal. You can accelerate at 90% pedal travel, squeeze on the last 10% and feel the engine respond. In my experience, the PD doesn't do this.
Swings and roundabouts, and horses for courses. I find the common rail more "petrol like". Whether that's a good or a bad thing, I'm not sure :-)
Edited by DP on 13/11/2008 at 13:11
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'I don't think its just Vectra diesels that have a bad image (Ford TDCIs make a few mechanics suck their teeth!)'
Have a look at the Mazda 6 thread....Scary.
Steve.
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Horses for courses yes. I personally prefer the mule kick of the PD as it's fantastic for safe overtaking but yes Common rail engines seem to be more civilised in both refinement and delivery. As mentioned in the VW PD thread the Unit injector technology is less dependent on fuel for lubrication (the pump injectors are lubricated by the admittedly special engine oil) so, as previously stated, provided you are scrupulous with the servicing, use good quality Diesel and give the engine a good bootful occasionally to clear its lungs ( if not the biker behind you's ) it will run and run.
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I run my PD on Tesco diesel. It meets the specification required by VAG.
659.
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As a motorcyclist I'm getting fed up with getting lungs full of black soot.
That's why the Euro 5 regs ensures that all diesels are fitted with a DPF to eliminate the black soot, and why my current diesel car has a DPF for the same reason.
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My Mazda6 with DPF definately has less visible emissions. When I first got the Mondeo TDCi EuroIV I was impressed (lets ignore the EGR problem it had) but after a while it could put out a lot of smoke. So DPFs are benefical but the judge is out on reliability and replacement cost.
Back to the original question, some VAG group cars do still use the Pumpe Düse engines. Apart from that I would think most are Common Rail. I doubt if there are any indirect injection turbo diesels anymore in cars for emission reasons. And Pumpe Düse complicated for other reasons - CR as a concept seems simpler and more controllable.
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