Driving along quite happily today at about 40mph in top gear in SHMBO's 306, when it started to run a bit hesitantly, kept driving for about another two miles to our final destination and it got gradually worse, but not enough to warrant stopping. Did not stall when we reached our destination, but ticked-over really roughly when idling in the car park. It was almost like it was running on three cylinders, and sounded "flat".
Car seemed to rev okay without missing, but the exhaust tail pipe was DEFINITELY sooty, (it has always been spotlessly clean and we have had the car from new, and it has only done 43,000 miles).
I stopped the engine and re-started after about five seconds, it now runs perfect!
Drove home (about 60 miles) with no further problems, but the exhaust pipe is definitely showing it running rich. I've done a MPG check and it's doing about 40 MPG, so does not seem to be using fuel to any massive excess at all.
Any ideas? Could the Lambda sensor have failed and it started to over-fuel and when I stopped and re-started, the ECU has adjusted itself for the faulty oxygen reading?
Answers on a postcard please!
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What make of plugs are in it and what make of coilpack?
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Thanks for the interest SL.
Plugs are NGK, changed within last 12 months, (3000 at the absolute maximum miles ago).
Coil pack was changed when car was about 2 years old. I don't know the make as I got it from a factor, so it will be a generic one. I changed it because it was hesitating sometimes and when I read-up on some forum (perhaps this one), everyone seemed to recommend changing the coil pack as it could possibly damage the ECU, i.e. it seemed to be a "known" problem area! Coil pack must be is a "wasted spark" type as it only has a four pin connector and you need at least five pins if each coil is fired independently.
Surely if the coil pack was shot, it wouldn't just go away upon an immediate re-start?
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Nearly every failed Sagem coilpack that I've seen has been running NGK plugs. Nothing wrong with NGK; they just don't suit this weird "phase-detection" system unique to these cars. [Yes; wasted spark.]
So fit a set of dealer plugs and try it. If it's a Sagem coil - and a lot of factors' ones are, as the dealers won't accept them - then consider binning it. "Known problem" doesn't begin to describe it...
Did the engine management light come on? These are pretty good at spotting a misfire.
The oxy sensor's plug can corrode too; a misfire allows lots of oxygen into the exhaust and sends the fuelling rich to "compensate."
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Screwloose, all multi (two & four) cylinder Japanese four-stroke motorcycles since the early 70's have run NGK plugs and "wasted spark" ignition systems from new, so why should this be a problem with the Peugeot? Please note, I'm not for one minute saying your wrong, I'm just curious as to why Peugeot seems to have this problem. So please if you don't mind, enlighten me! Are you saying the replacement coil pack is just as bad as the original one? As stated earlier, the car has been owned from new, and has only done 42,000 miles in nine years.
One thing has just cropped-up, the car wouldn't start a couple of days ago (not cold, but after a relatively short run). Just spun-over on the starter and never attempted to fire. I switched off the ignition and tried again straight-away and it fired-up no problem!
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This is the only engine, that I've ever come across, to use a ludicrous "phase detection" system to determine which cylinder, of the pair it just sparked, actually fired. It does this by analysing the post-discharge "ringing" in the low-tension circuit. [Everyone else just fitted a simple cam sensor....]
This lunacy requires that the spike-prone primary circuit has to be connected to the "thinking" part of the ECU - most are well firewalled from such delicate circuitry. If there are any coil insulation issues - and the coil is mounted where it will best get cooked - then the ECU is toast. It's also hyper-sensitive to spark plug resistance - hence the necessity for dealer plugs.
The non-start issues could have been an immobilizer key-reader problem, or even a failing crank sensor. As you've already replaced the coolant temp sensor, then that obvious one can be moved down the list - for now.
As to the coil; depends on it's make - only fit Bougicord-Electrofil ones on these. With all the right parts, they don't give problems; they just can't tolerate anything different - no matter how good the actual components are.
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Thanks for the information and interest Screwloose.
Can you please tell me what make the OE plus are? I had an indie. do the first out-of-warranty service and they used NGK plugs, (the wrong ones as I subsequently found-out when I started to service it myself). I think this may have been the reason I replaced the original coil-pack, but it's a few years ago and I've had a few bottles of red since then!
Also, where do I source the "Bougicord-Electrofil" coil pack? Is that OEM also? Will it be marked with the makers name?
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No idea what makes they use - like most French manufacturers, they have many parallel sources to protect against supply failure due to industrial action.
The dealers sell Bougie coilpacks; with 4 new extensions and a set of plugs they're around £120.
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Screwloose, I feel like I'm giving you the full nine yards over this problem, but all the other related posts seem to be the 206 with the 1.4 engine. Is this also a problem with the 1.6 in the 306?
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Yes; there are few visible differences between the KFX and the NFZ.
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Screwloose, I checked the currently fitted coil pack I got from the factor way-back-when, and luckily it's the Bougicord-Electrofil type.
Does this mean I only have to change the plugs, or will the NGK's have affected the "correct" coil-pack?
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I've never seen a Bougie coil fail; try the correct plugs first and we'll take it from there.
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Screwloose, the local Peugeot dealer wants £29.33 for a set of OEM plugs! He gave me the Peugeot part number of 596015 (quoted from me giving the VIN) and said to get Bosch if I was to buy elsewhere, as these are OEM fitment.
Called local GSF and quoted Peugeot part number and he said that was a Bosch FR7DC+ at £7.04 for a set, (76% saving).
Would you say this Bosch part is a safe bet?
Edit, just checked on another website and it quotes Bosch FR7LDC+ which looks correct as the "L" may mean its a longer type? they are about £20 a set!
Edited by nick62 on 27/10/2008 at 17:17
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Certainly Bosch have been used as OE by PSA - but I have FR6KDC as the ones listed for a '99 NFZ. [An NFT 2000-on; takes a FR7DC9]
The OE make most used was Eyquem; with either an RFC52LS or RFC58LS3 on the NFZ.
That's why I get dealer plugs; no time for the hassle...
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sorry about the offtopic screwloose,i saw the discussion about de Golf overboost problem back in 2005, I think I have the same problem since I tried to move the vnt15 actuator by hand and it didn't move an inch,even though I tried with effort fron that strange position.i have some pictures .the arm that moves the vains is blocked about 2 mm from some sort of stopping screw in the turbo body.i think that's tha max position, that is overboosting.I wanted to ask you because I saw you have some knowledge in repairing cars.PS ,i have a '99 Golf TDI 90bhp.the turbo is the one with the exhaust manyfold in one piece.
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Screwloose, sorry for the delayed reply, been away for a couple of weeks.
Replaced the plugs with Bosch type. Car runs okay, but tick-over is still erratic, (but not as bad as before). It appears to run on three cylinders and then picks-up/overrevs slightly when the fourth cylinder chimes-in.
So the fault only seems to be at tick-over now! Please remember the car has only done 40,000ish miles, (hence I do not suspect the tick-over control servo).
The engine fault light has not come on at all during these problems.
Edited by nick62 on 14/11/2008 at 16:18
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nick
Do you know the make of the ECU fitted on yours and also the make of injectors?
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SL, ECU is Bosch Motronic MP7.2. I have no idea of injector type, but I will have a look at them over the weekend and let you know.
When the car was about 2.5 to 3 years old (about 12,000 miles on the clock), the engine light came on. It had been dealer serviced from new, but I took it to an inde when the two year warranty had expired just before this happened. They had fitted NGK plugs!!!
I took it to the Bosch Diagnostic centre in Bootle at the time, (very good service) for the engine diagnostics to be scanned and the fault code was 63. The engineer had no idea what this meant as it pointed to injector #3 from his look-up chart, but I was under the bonnet with him and could see that the injectors are wired as per the "wasted spark" coils, so it was impossible to pinpoint it to a single injector fault, (and he agreed). He called me back the following day to advise that the problem was probably the coil-pack and so I brought the Bougie one that is fitted now and the engine light has never come on since. The car has also been okay apart from a intermittently faulty engine temperature sensor about three years ago.
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nick
That's odd; as the code for #3 injector on a Bosch system is 73 - although a failing coilpack often flags a false "injectors 2/3 code" on models before they went singly wired in '00.
Only Marelli injectors fail [and how!] so if you have a Bosch ECU, then it's very likely that the injectors are Bosch too - and I've never had one fail.
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Screwloose,
Checked the injectors today and I cannot see any ID apart from some numbers, (too small to see without further investigation). Not very technical, but they are dark blue in colour if this helps?
Anyway, the car seems to have "sorted itself-out" since I last posted! Now I'm the first one for admitting that faults don't go away on their own, but the tick-over really has been faultless apart from the first couple of days after fitting the Bosch plugs and I'm confused as to why? The "normal" running was fine straight after the plug swap.
To make matters worse, just when I thought everything was okay, the engine fault lamp came on yesterday about 15 minutes into a motorway journey, (doing about 60 mph at the time). The car is running good though.
One point I have noticed, (right from the start of the rough running episode a few weeks ago), it that the exhaust tail-pipe is VERY sooty. This has always been a clean as a whistle previously throughout the life of the car. I cleaned it about a fortnight ago (it is stainless) and its totally sooted-up again today. is it possible the lambda sensor has bit the dust with all the un-burnt fuel and now the fuelling is too rich?
Looks like a trip to my local Bosch chap for a fault code reading. What especially do you think I (he) should looking for?
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Blue injectors are indeed Bosch.
If it's running rich; then the coolant sensor reading might be worth checking.
See what the code is and take it from there.
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