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You're saying these water thin economy oils aren't as good?
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No. I`m just interested in evidence in older engines. Thread title can also be rhetorical, insert your own meaning.
;)
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Old engines previously run on thicker oil probably won't like it I'm sure
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There must be some big ends tapping out the last post somewhere.. Don`t you just miss hearing old time engine noises going past?
Edited by oilrag on 13/07/2008 at 18:31
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I do miss the sounds of a 2 stroke diesel howling by, and the refined whistle of a cummins as it cruises by at maximum velocity, are those the sounds you meant.
Or maybe the diesel sound to stir the blood the most, a Deltic on full song, spent much of my childhood at 'Welwyn North' listening to those wonderful sounds...
The hollow burble of a MGB, the jarring overrun note of the Moggie 1000.
And those throaty roars of twin choke webbers.
Have you been away slip streaming again OR, its been very normal of late..;)
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Don`t you just miss hearing old time engine noises going past?
Engine noises are one thing, a banging big-end is another oilrag. Not heard as often as it used to be, but every now and then I look round to see some frightful illegal-looking shed with a worried driver clanking past... Sets my teeth on edge actually, the automotive death-rattle... Always sympathize with the driver though, unless I happen to know he or she has wilfully asked for it.
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Engine noises are one thing a banging big-end is another oilrag. Not heard as often as it used to be but every now and then I look round to see some frightful illegal-looking shed with a worried driver clanking past...
Showing my age here, don't think I've ever heard it! Seen a few old smokers and tappety rattly cars but no knockers
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The effects of low viscosity
- I don't mean to be mocking -
Are lost in nebulosity
Until you hear the knocking.
I know it sucked my crankshaft clean
Of sludgy, swarfy marrow:
And turned my dung-cart dream machine
To a clanking turnip barrow.
Edited by Lud on 13/07/2008 at 18:42
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spot on Lud ;)
GB, I know, fear of being struck off..
No, Steam engines, I fear you missed them, standing on Doncaster station LNER,age 10, surrounded by clanking hissing and steel wheels slipping....
One of those drivers let me inside the cab, on the station, coal being shovelled, steam hissing and so on. No clank like a steam clank, on the LMS the austerity class could be heard by their `ends` knocking miles away, it was the first sound of approach you heard.
Then on the Rhine, ever heard those now rare very slow reving diesels? Sounded like about 60 revs a minute with a distinct pause after the (individually heard) cylinders had fired. (two stroke?)
Biked there in 1980, lots of them. Three years ago, motored there in the crate and only heard one in 3 nights, all faster and even sounding engines now
Edited by oilrag on 13/07/2008 at 19:17
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They seem to have been a fad. Apart from a few special uses; does anyone use 0W-30 any more?
I used to be a Valvoline distributor for many years and stocked about 7 tons of retail packs alone. Of the 39 engine oil lines; the 0W-30 synth was the slowest seller - Valvoline themselves admitted that they only produced it because Mobil's advertizing created a demand; they made a point of saying that they didn't recommend it for ANY application.
Later; the manufacturer-specific 0W-30s appeared: first, the VAG one, then Mercedes, Ford and finally Vauxhall. They didn't last long either. Too thin and too expensive. [A right pain to have to stock five 0W-30s too.] Both Ford and GM had nightmares with random oil drinkers, where the rings hadn't bedded and quietly gave up.
As compliance with the ludicrous EU new-oil storage regs was unviable; I got out of oil a few years ago - but I'm still stuck with a few cans of my original batch of 0W-30!!
I did once see an old Cortina 1.6 that someone had filled with 5W-30 semi - it all ended up on the floor overnight! The sump was rotten on the inside.
I think the old engines will run fine on the water-thin stuff - they'll just burn and leak rather a lot.
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An aside, but I just did a youtube search for big end failure and found a few vids of cars being revved at the limiter with no oil or water and one old Micra lasted nearly two minutes, didn't even have the rocker cover on!
Amazing what modern engines can take.
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Both Ford and GM had nightmares with random oil drinkers where the rings hadn't bedded and quietly gave up.
That's very interesting, suggesting that some owners don't run their cars in properly (HJ says one should let the first oil get very dirty and rev the engine, after that changing the oil religiously. Others here disagree, and manufacturers don't seem to trust owners to do it either).
Rolls-Royce in the twenties used to run its engines in before installing them, mounting them without plugs on a rig that drove them electrically, the sump filled with special lapping or polishing fluid, for so many hours, and then running it properly on a test bench for so many hours at various speeds, then in the car itself.
If car makers are going to specify watch oil for engines they are going to have to do something like that, or face expensive and irksome warranty claims.
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Not sure about letting the first oil get dirty; if the rings haven't bedded-in by 500 miles - then they're never going to.
The problem with the use of 0W-30 oil is that it has to be expensive fully-synth to stay in grade. As this means extended service intervals; the cars had to run-in on it too - there was no early first service.
Engines don't run-in properly on fully synth; it's too good at preventing ring-to-bore contact. That's probably why semi is the tipple of chice for most manufacturers now - and extended service intervals have been quietly sidelined.
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Who has sidelined extended service intervals? Another thing: so far as I know fully synth has no greater lubricity, in itself, than mineral oil, so I doubt the ring to bore wear rate has increased from the nature of the carrier for the additives:)
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Who has sidelined extended service intervals?
VAG for one. All cars now come set to fixed service intervals unless the customer requests LongLife.
Edited by Screwloose on 13/07/2008 at 21:08
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So far as I can tell from the brochure for the Golf, the arrangements for OCI are as before. If annual mileage is under 10,000 = annual oil change. If driving over that, and most journeys are 25 miles and "the vehicle is driven mainly at a constant speed with minimum vehicle and engine loading, minimal towing and driven in an economical manner" then up to 18,000 miles or two year OCI. So not exactly sidelined! BTW, in the US 0w20 is commonly advised: Honda, Ford etc. Someone must help offset the fuel glugging F150 which have been the biggest selling "car" for several years past.....
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I suspect some manufacturers gave themselves totally unnecessary problems with oil. Still can`t see why the grade and spec are not on a plate on the engine cover, in a way that could be updated.
I`m thinking of a Morris minor as i write this, but it could easily be a false memory as it was 1962.
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not exactly sidelined!
That's what the book says. The service indicator in the dash can be programmed many ways.
Originally, the cars came set to LongLife [flexible points-based] intervals; but after a confidential internal bulletin a while back, during the PDI they are now all supposed to be set to put the light on after a fixed mileage - unless it's a fleet deal that likes less services and couldn't care less about the result.
LongLife was causing too many warranty claims.
0W-20 is a cold-climate oil; it must be very popular in Canada and the northern US - you won't crank a 20W-50 over at -30C.
Edited by Screwloose on 13/07/2008 at 22:11
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0W-20 is a cold-climate oil; it must be very popular in Canada and the northern US
Actually it is now regularly recommended in the cold-climates of Florida, Southern California, and Texas.
Here is the official Mobil reply to this question:
www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/Ask...x
Answer:
Mobil 1 0W-30 Advanced Fuel Economy is engineered to offer the same high temperature/high shear viscosity performance as 5W-30 and 10W-30, so it is a good fit for the Florida heat. You can use it with confidence. Same goes for Mobil 1 0W-20 Advanced Fuel Economy and 5W-20.
I think Toyota issued a TSB in the US in 2006 for all Toyota and Scion engines to use either 0W-20 or 5W-20 oils.
Edited by jbif on 13/07/2008 at 23:42
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0W-20 in a stinking-hot engine in 100+ degrees - ooh; nasty!
That's pushing even synth to it's absolute limits - no wonder they change it every 500 yards. Maybe in a lazy low-stressed V8; but I wouldn't fancy it in a high-output turbo.
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Interesting. Thanks. If I still had a VW diesel, I'd change once a year, and the 5w/40 seems more robust, even by the VW book:)
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>Engines don't run-in properly on fully synth;
I seem to recall that some Corvettes were filled with dino oil at the factory and then changed to synth at the first service.
Kevin...
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Kevin
If that was the case; then it's nice to see that someone listens to their engineers and not the marketing men.
Run in on mineral oil and change to the good stuff at 1500.
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"LongLife was causing too many warranty claims."
Screwloose,
What was happening, was it wear or sludge related?
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Both; things like cam followers and turbo problems across many different units. The 1.8T engines were dropping like flies with clogged oil pick-ups. Once the oil goes too far on a petrol turbo it can't suspend the crud and disaster soon follows.
Wasn't just VAG; Saab and others had similar grief on their turbos.
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Is it still an issue here? IIRC, a number of relatively highly-stressed Japanese (Toyota - non turbo) and VAG vehicles sold in the States had problems, exacerbated because the dealers used mineral oils suited only to low-output American cars. Changing every 3000 didn't stop them glooping up! Adoption of oils of a suitable quality (VW502.00) seems to have cured the issue in VAG cars, plus 5000 mile changes, to satisfy an extended 8 year warranty against sludge.
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Is it still an issue here?
The reason it might have become an issue in the UK was because some dealers here made the same mistake as in the USA. Some VW dealers are alleged to have used the wrong oil for cars which were on longlife regimes, as evidenced by a search of this forum - it should produce examples of customers who found that their VW dealers were clueless about the right grade of oil to use and sourced oil out of one barrel for all their servicing.
I can foresee the time when the UK and the EU switch over to 5W-20 or 0W-20 synthetics are standard oils in order to meet environmental standards as in the US.
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Firstly, I think this is a non-issue. I know that my ex-colleagues aren't spending all their time swapping Vauxhall engines out.
Also, this is a forum where it's not unknown for there to be long threads discussing the relative life of different brands of lamps!, so, if such engine failures were frequent, the technical side of this forum would be full of threads asking about taking measurements of taper, ovality, and wear.
There is some interesting data about these oils, as defined by the SAE standard, which was hinted at in the mobil thread posted above.
The low shear rate kinematic viscosities are, as you would expect, the kinematic viscosity of the 30 weight oil is about 3/4 of that of the 40 weight oil.
The high shear rate kinematic viscosity is, however, *identical* for a 30 weight oil, and a 40 weight oil - so, I would agree with Mobil's advice that practically the 30 weight oil is OK.
The low shear rate viscosity is more important to determine the pressure drop where the oil is simply being pumped along a tube, while the high shear rate viscosity determines the oil's response when it is being called upon to seperate two surfaces which are moving at a high relative speed - like the bearings referred to in oilrag's post.
This is borne out by practical experience - there must be many long-life cars, and cars for which 30 weight oils were specified which have acheived a very long life already.
If I were to stick my neck out, I would say that in the UK, there have been far more engines trashed due to oil being too thick when cold than too thin when hot.
I can see that a highly loaded engine, an engine that will get very hot, or a high power engine used for racing where the loads on the bearings are beyond normal specification could benefit from the use of thicker oil - but, this isn't normal duty.
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"If I were to stick my neck out, I would say that in the UK, there have been far more engines trashed due to oil being too thick when cold than too thin when hot."
Dead right.
From a now-dead site on the Web:
"It is time to dispel the notion that 0W-30 oil is too thin when our manual calls for 10W-30. A 0W-30 is always the better choice, always. The 0W-30 is not thinner. It is the same thickness as the 10W-30 at operating temperatures [i.e. the second number is the same in each case. RJ]. The difference is when you turn your engine off for the night [i.e. the first numbers are different. RJ]. Both oils thicken over the evening and night. They both had a thickness, a viscosity of 10, when you got home and turned your engine off. That was the perfect thickness for engine operation.
As cooling occurs and you wake up ready to go back to work the next day the oils have gotten too thick for your engine to lubricate properly. It is 75 F outside this morning. One oil thickened to a viscosity of say 90 [i.e. the 10W-30. RJ]. The other thickened to a viscosity of 40 [i.e. the 0W-30. RJ]. Both are too thick in the morning at startup. But 40 is better than 90. Your engine wants the oil to have a thickness of 10 to work properly. You are better off starting with the viscosity of 40 than the honey-like oil with a viscosity of 90.
I repeat: More confusion occurs because people think in terms of the oil thinning when it gets hot. They think this thinning with heat is the problem with motor oil. It would be more correct to think that oil thickens when it cools to room temperature and THIS is the problem. In fact this is the problem. [bold added by RJ]"
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Righto, so is my son doing the best thing by running 0W-60 in his Subaru.
I didn't believe you could get that, but Millers make it, and the chap who rebuilt/overhauled my lads engine (and modified the gearbox too) uses it in his rally cars.
He says Subaru's run very hot, so highly recommends the stuff, he knows what he's doing too.
This must cover all engine temperatures.
By the way, Toyo recommend 5W-30 for my pick up, but the dealer says too thin use 10W-40.
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>>Toyo recommend 5W-30 for my pick up
So, that's what it should get.
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>>Toyo recommend 5W-30 for my pick up So that's what it should get.
But the dealer says too thin use the normal 10-40.
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>>But the dealer says...
The evidence of all the development and testing done by Toyota, and their liaison with the oil companies to derive the right oil is not to be heeded, while the opinion of a dealer, with their somewhat limited knowledge (and one 10W40 oil drum in the corner of the workshop?) is to be followed without much question?
What possible evidence can the dealer offer to justify their suggestion, and what basis and authority have they to override Toyota's recomendation?
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What possible evidence can the dealer offer to justify their suggestion and what basis and authority have they to override Toyota's recomendation?
Fair comment NC, i shall ask them just that next time i'm there.
I don't know if they even stock 5W 30 as they would have used standard Toyo semi synth 10W 40 had it gone in for service anyway.
The handbook says 5W 30 preferred, but able to use CF4 or CE or CD alternatively, which i believe are generally 10W 40's anyway.
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In practice GB, I'm sure there's no issue whichever oil you use - despite oilrag's paranoia, lubrication failure, leading to engine failure is rare.
However, you may be able to enjoy a fuel economy benefit by running 5W30 instead of 10W40.
It's always best to use oil to the most modern standard.
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The handbook says 5W 30 preferred, but able to use CF4 or CE or CD alternatively, which i believe are generally 10W 40's anyway.
Some truckers arguing over dealer recommendations for Toyota engines:
www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/tundra/121522-0w-20.../
Car transporter trucker arguing with a bridge:
www.skodaoctavia.cz/SkodaAuto/Nehoda-kamionu.htm
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Thanks for those links Jbif, i promise (not) to use the transporter link in any future arguments over foreign trucks....-;), of course us saintly chaps would never do such a thing, but he was a clot, the body of the transporter was jammed under the building, let alone the load.
Have seen a photograph from years ago where a Saab 99 was stuffed into a railway bridge at about halfway point up the A pillar, it just stayed there after the transporter went under for ages, just supported by the edge of the RSJ angle. Heck of a strong car.
Tundra's are usually petrol V8's, SWMBO really wants one of those, though i'm sure most victims on her commute wouldn't.
Looks like a worldwide sport arguing about oil,....thinks.. wars are fought over it.
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From a now-dead site on the Web:
Roger Jones:
A E Haas website has moved over to BobIsTheOilGuy.com
www.bobistheoilguy.com/aehaas/
The same article but fitted to one page is available on other web sites too:
This first one includes some additional material; Test questions for the real hoilyrags:
www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles
This 2nd one is just another copy:
www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2311334
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Thanks for that. You beat me to it, as a minute ago I was congratulating myself for finding the Haas articles again and I came here to post the URL.
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