Hi everyone, I'm after some advice...
I've a problem with my Citroen ZX (92J 1360 (carb)) that's got me a bit flummoxed. The problem began when I pulled into a parking space - it stalled suddenly just before I stopped. After that it hasn't run at all. I've checked the ignition and it seems to be sparking OK, so my initial though was that it must be fuel. The fuel pump seems to be working as it should, and I changed the carb for one I had lying around in the garage. The new carb has worked fine in the past, and I can hear and smell fuel being squirted into the inlet manifold when the throttle is actuated. No change.
Down to mechanical basics - the engine components rotate OK. I haven't done a compression test yet, but there doesn't seem to be any reason why it would have lost compression - the engine wasn't stressed before it stalled, and there were no warning signs.
What's really confusing is that it won't even attempt to start, and everything seems to be OK.
I'm going to change the ignition system tonight as it probably needs doing anyway (distributor cap, rotor arm, plugs, leads), and check the compression.
Any other ideas on what could be causing this? - it's driving me mad!
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Neil,
Are you sure the camshaft is turning? The timing belt couldn't have snapped??
After that you have to consider this is a sudden failure and unlikely to be a spark plug or lead problem, these usually give a more gradual loss of performance.
Last year I had to help the local garage with exactly the same car/model/age as yours. It was a pig to sort but turned out to be ign related. Can't remember if it was the distributor or the ign module, one or the other I'm sure. But you say it sparks OK. Where/how have you tested this?
David W
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Thanks for your reply David!
The timing belt is going round and tensioned OK, so I assume the camshaft is as well.
To test the spark I pulled out the furthest plug to the offside of the vehicle (don't know the number) , earthed it against the block and turned the engine over - it sparked OK. I haven't checked them all.
Its almost as though the timing is out by miles, or the spark is going to the wrong cylinder - but I haven't touched anything!
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Have you had the cam cover off and inspected the belt? It could have stripped a few teeth, causing the camshaft and ignition timing to shift. IIRC the distributor on these engines is run off the end of the camshaft. Alternatively a foreign object could have dropped into the cambelt and made it jump a few teeth - I once saw this on a Toyota where one of the securing bolts for the cam cover backplate had unscrewed itself. Or the water pump may have seized - it is driven off the cambelt. Check that the crankshaft and camshaft timing marks still line up as they should.
Richard Hall
bangernomics.tripod.com
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Hmmmm, I guess any of those could be the cause Richard.
I've had the timing belt cover off for a quick look - it was rotating and seemed OK otherwise. The belt's only done 10k, but I'll have a better look tonight.
Thanks for your help.
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OK I wonder if the plugs are wet with fuel if you pop them out after trying to crank it over?
It would be nice to prove you have a spark to all the plugs.
It hasn't got very wet recently has it (ie. coolant leak onto distributor or similar)?
David W
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Yes.....Richard's comment about the timing belt is very valid.
David W
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The plugs were wet when I took them out. I suppose it's because unburnt fuel has been dumped all over them! Cheers for your help guys.
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There was a similar thread on a BX board recently. Turned out that the Woodruffe key in the camshaft sprocket had sheared off and the valve timing was all to pot (and presumably the ignition timing as well). Worth a look with the rocker cover off to see if the valve timing looks somewhere near right.....
Richard
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That's just too horrid to think about. The sort of fault that could take you weeks to spot (if ever). I can't remember whether this engine has a proper distributor with a rotor arm - if so, remove the cap, mark the position of No1 plug lead on the distributor body, then rotate the engine until you get to TDC on No 1 cylinder (a long thin screwdriver down the plug hole will help find this) and see whether the rotor arm is pointing to where the contact for No 1 plug lead would be, if the distributor cap was fitted. Obviously this has to be on the compression stroke (both valves fully closed on No 1 cylinder). Actually much easier to do than to describe... If the timing marks on the camshaft and crankshaft appear to line up, perhaps this should be the next line of attack.
Richard Hall
bangernomics.tripod.com
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Hi Everyone,
Thanks for the advice you gave yesterday! It was really very helpful.
I had a look yesterday evening, and it seems the Camshaft and Crankshaft have come out of alignment (i.e. the timing belt has slipped by approx 2 teeth).
Just to check I did this right:
1) I turned the crankshaft until a 6mm bolt would engage with a hole in the rear of the flywheel at the timing mark.
2) The hole in the camshaft pulley should now line up with the hole in the block for a 10mm bolt to engage. It didn't line up.
Is this right?
If I'm correct, is there any way to tell if any damage has been done to the engine (valves/head) without taking it to bits? Will a compression test give me any idea?
I can only assume that when the belt was fitted it was done incorrectly (add to that the fact that the plastic upper cambelt cover had just been wrenched off rather than carefully unbolted - this suggests severe incompetence). There are also some splits on the rear of the belt in one place.
Now, I've had this car for just under a year, and got the timing belt done (by a stop'n'steer garage) when I first got it. It turns out the work should still be under waranty, so I phoned them to find out what they could do.
They suggested the most likely cause is that the belt tensioner is faulty. If they're right, I am (quite rightly) liable for the repair of this and all other damage. Can I easily check this myself? They want £40 just to look at it!
I have the dilemma of
1) Getting a (probably incompetent) garage to check the car at considerable expense. This could have the outcome of them:
a) fixing it all at no cost to me, or
b) telling me I need to spend a load more money with them.
2) Investigating/fixing the problem myself. This could have the outcome of me:
a) finding out the garage was at fault, but not being able to do anything as I'd have tampered with it.
b) finding it wasn't the garages fault but saving some money.
At least with this option I know any work will have been done correctly!
BTW, Sorry this message is so long - it's a difficult dilemma to explain!
What should I do? Any ideas?
thanks again
Neil
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New cambelt approx £5. Tensioner shouldn't be hugely expensive. Splits at the back of the belt in just one place - sounds more like something falling into the works than a tensioner fault, but check everything very carefully including all the belt pulleys for damage, sharp edges etc. If the upper belt cover had been damaged, you might have got a stone thrown up from the road into the cambelt housing, or even a piece of the damaged cover falling off into the belt. A visit to a breakers should sort you out for a new cover - this engine was used in lots of small Citroens and Peugeots.
If the belt has only moved by a couple of teeth, and there weren't any nasty noises when the engine stopped, the valves and pistons should be OK. A compression test will tell you for sure.
Richard Hall
bangernomics.tripod.com
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Neil,
Looks like you've sussed your problem and Richard has given suitable advice.
It does sound like foreign object damage to me as well. I wouldn't bother taking it back to the garage. You've looked at it this far so I think (armed with a Haynes?) you'll change the belt OK. I'd budget nearer £10 for the belt and up to £35 for the tensioner. You'll only need the tensioner if it's worn but there is a good chance of that (completely unrelated to this incident).
This is an easy job on the ZX 1.4 compared with many cars so go for it. I'd fit/time a new belt, turn it over by hand a few times to make sure it all feels OK then start up with your fingers crossed.
As Richard says have a good look for the "item/debris" that caused this before fitting the new belt.
Good luck,
David W
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Cheers Richard - I'll get the bits tonight.
There weren't any nasty noises when it stopped, so it should be OK. Will a compression test still work if the valve timing is a bit (say 15 degrees) out? - just a thought.
Is changing the belt a tricky job? Do I need a special tool to tension the belt correctly?
Thanks again
Neil
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Cheers David also!
Here's crossing my fingers....
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Don't even think about trying a compression test until you've changed the belt. If that damaged belt snaps while you are spinning the engine on the starter, valves will hit pistons and then you will be in trouble.
Belt tensioning - if you don't have the right tool, a good general rule is to fit the belt, and tension it until you can just twist the belt through 90 degrees with your finger and thumb, in the middle of the longest belt run between pulleys. Rotate the engine a couple of turns by hand (using a spanner on the crank pulley bolt NOT the bolt for the camshaft pulley) and then check the tension again and adjust if needed.
However, David W knows more about Citroens than I do, so if he has a better way of doing it, I'm sure he will advise you presently.
Richard Hall
bangernomics.tripod.com
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Hi everyone -
Richard and David - thanks for your help earlier, it has got me a long way!
The story so far:
Citroen ZX breaks down and has to be towed home. It's not fuel or ignition related - the problem turns out to be timing. The cambelt has slipped. (identified with the helpful assistance of David W and Richard Hall)
I fitted a new timing belt last night and it runs! Unfortunately, it's only running on 3 cylinders. The one nearest the timing belt (no. 4?) isn't firing (not spark related).
Fumes 'pulse' out of the oil filler hole if the cap is removed - so I'm assuming I've bent a valve or two. I'll get a compression checker tonight to make sure.
Now, I'd like to do the job myself (my maintainance confidence is high at the moment!) so I'm going to get a cylinder head from the scrappers.
Do you have any advice about choosing a cylinder head, or any pitfalls I should be aware of when doing the job?
There's a couple things I'm worried about though:
1) Haynes says there are two head gaskets available - one is thicker for skimmed heads. How do I tell if a scrap head has been skimmed (therefore which gasket to get)?
2) Can I use the (Bosch) distributor and camshaft I currently have on the new cylinder head? There's nothing wrong with them, so I don't see the point in changing them. Is this OK even if the new head has Ducellier ignition bits fitted?
3) Is it likely the piston is damaged? Is there any way I can tell before taking the head off?
Again, thanks for your help!!!!
Neil
BTW, does anyone know a good scrap yard in/near Leeds that does components 'off the shelf'?
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Neil,
My personal view would be to stick with the old head and fit new valves. If it ran OK before you will know it should again with the repairs made. You will need to check very carefully for other damage you hadn't first noticed though.
Scrapyard heads are a lottery and you could end up buying one that looks OK and then having to overhaul that because it was warped/cracked or just worn out.
Also keeping to the old head will mean you can see from the head gasket you take off which new one is needed (I think this will be identified with "notches" on one edge).
You'll just have to judge the piston condition when the head is off. Often they are marked a little and fine but sometimes they are crushed enough at the edge to spoil the top ring groove.
We'll talk you through it!
David W
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Cheers David
I guess what you say makes sense - if it ain't broke don't fix it, right?
How would you suggest I fit new valves (+guides)? Is it something I can do reasonably easily myself? Any idea of what kind of costs would be involved if I take the head down to a garage?
I've swapped the head on a Mini before, so I should be OK getting the thing off and back on (seems easier for a ZX than a Mini from what Haynes says!)
I've never touched valves though. I'm scared!
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Neil
What you need is a valve spring compressing tool. If you don't have one, and don't think you'll need it again after this job, it might be better to remove the camshaft and followers, then let a garage fit the valves. Shouldn't take them more than half an hour to do two valves, even with lapping the new valves into the seats.
But don't buy any parts until you have had the head off. I don't like the sound of oil fumes 'pulsing' out of the filler cap - can't see how a bent valve would cause that. Unless of course it was doing it before, and you never noticed it. Try German & Swedish (who now do French parts as well) for the valves, head gasket set and any other bits that you need. They'll be a lot cheaper than Citroen, and probably more helpful.
Richard Hall
bangernomics.tripod.com
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Cheers Rich,
It's not really 'oil fumes' as such - it just smells of engine, petrol and exhaust really!
You're right about GS&F - They were very good when I got some bits yesterday, and luckily the branch is about 10mins away by bike!
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An interesting thread, but do me a favour, please don't start separate ones.
A single thread is easier to follow, contains the whole story and keeps the place tidy.
In case you aren't aware, any time that you write a reply to an old thread, it will immed. bring it to the top of the listing anyway.
Thanks, and good luck with the cylinder head.
M.
p.s. if you decide to change the valves yourself, using a bodge tool rather than a valve spring compressor (and its easy enough)for goodness sake don`t have your face over the valve as you try to refit the collets, or whatever they have these days.
If you slip, you can get a face full of high speed metal. I once had my hair parted by the valve spring from a capri. Scary.
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erm, yes. I think I'll be taking it to a garage...
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p.s. if you decide to change the valves yourself....... If you slip, you can get a face full of high speed metal.
You think that's bad. I had the spring from a macpherson strut slip out the spring compressor once. After bouncing off the back of the garage wall it hit me full in the chest. Felt like I had done a 5 rounds with Mike Tyson I can tell you!!
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Just a note to say a big cheers to all the people who offered me advice on this thread. The car is now back together and working great. Couldn't have done it without you!
PS anyone in Leeds - Paul Burtonshaw garage is ace - he ground a valve seat and put a new valve in the cylinder head for me for free. A top bloke.
Neil
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hi all i need help
i have a citroen zx 1.4 reflex m reg and have just had to replace the head gasket can anyone help me with the timing of the engine.
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