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I have a Citroen ZX 1.9TD bought new Nov 1997 fully serviced and having done 66,000 Miles, serviced weeks before. I had the same thing happen. I have written to Citroen who thanked me for giving them the opportunity to refuse to be of help! clearly there is a problem with these engines, I believe "What Car" magazine ran an article on the problem which I think related to the Xantia, but I may be wrong, in any case defineatly the PSA 1.9 Turbo Diesel engine. I think this matter should not be dropped. If travelling on a motorway at speed this could result in fatalities! It should be the duty of the manufacturer to investigate and rectify or make recompense. I am fitting a second hand engine as I cannot afford to fit a new one. I am writing to every organisation I can to try to get the matter sorted, any information you or anyone else can supply as to the cause would be appreciated. I have a thought that it may be connected to the fitting of the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation)system to reduce emissions of Nox, The thing I noticed was the build up of black oily gel in the inlet manifold when I removed the intercooler. On investigation I find that this system is not ideally suited to the diesel engine as it recycles the dirty exhaust gasses into the inlet manifold and into the engine, this contaminates the oil with soot particles which may block up the oil ways. did the fitting of this system start or change in 1997? I read somewhere that this system reduces the life of a diesel engine by a minimum of 25%! My servicing has been done at 5,000 intervals, but I believe that some of these engines had the service interval increased from 1997. with the fitting of this system it should have been reduced. This is just a theory but I cannot believe that Peugeot/Citroen do not know the cause. I just shows the contempt they have for their customers. Colleagues who have been considering buying the new C3 have been interested to see what Citroens response would be, they have decided to buy other makes as a result, do manufacturers not realise the damage to their reputations this kind of thing does? I am writing to Citroen one more to offer them the opportunity to reconsider their position.
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Hi Dave - You're right! EGR started in 1997, at first on Pugs then a short while later on Citroens.
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It would be interesting to know where exactly the failures were occuring, and the engine numbers of the affected units. XUD's in the past have covered huge mileages, and you hardly ever hear of them throwing con rods - except for the recent 97/98 TD's. A batch of TD engines built with non turbo con rods?
I'll make sure I avoid this period of manufacture on my next one (I'm currently on my second BX TD - at 90k, the last one was sold on at 136k - no thrown con rods!)
Richard
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The thought of non turbo rods being fitted crossed my mind but surely they would be identifiable! Anyone know how?
I will post my engine number a.s.a.p and maybe anyone else who knows of similar faults could do the same. I bought the car because of the high mileage that these engines are renowned for.
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Dave
I don't know what the different con rods look like but the TD allows oil to be sprayed onto the undersides of the pistons to aid cooling. I guess this might mean that there is an oilway in the rod that is visible and that would spray oil at a particular point in its travel i.e. there ought to be a hole that lines up with the oilway in the crankshaft, methinks. Whether it goes right up the rod to the small end, I don't know. Anyone ever rebuilt a TD?
Ian Cook
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Ian, it's unlikely that the piston is cooled via a hole running the length of the conn rod because it would be extremely difficult to drill a small diameter hole for such a length.
The usual method is for L-shaped oil jets fitted in the cylinder block, and fed from the main oil gallery, to squirt the oil up the cylinder bores. Accuracy of aim is essential with these jets, as is the timing if it is an intermittent squirt, but this is unlikely to be related to the rod-through-the-side problem.
Doddy, it would help identify the cause if we knew more about the conn rod before it came through the side. For example:
1. Did the big-end bearing cap come off or did the rod actually break?
2. If the cap came off, were either of the the big-end bolts/screws broken? (this could tell us if the cap came off by force or the bolts/screws came undone first).
3. If the rod broke, was this at the bottom end or the top end?
4. Was there any sign of seizure of the big-end on the crankshaft (as might happen if a bearing half-shell came loose and became jammed between the other half-shell and the crankshaft)?
5. Was there any sign of piston seizure?
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Firstly, my Peugeot had L-shaped oil jets, found one in the bottom of the oil sump - broken off.
The actual con-rod snapped at the bottom end with no sign of seizure on pistons or big end.
Engine Number of my poorly engine was CUBB4022935.
The theory of non turbo conrods being fitted to turbo engines makes sense to all here!!!! But how can we prove something like this to a big company like Pathetic Peugeot?!
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Doddy,
I'm entering this debate late because I've been busy but it is very interesting.
For years I've looked after loads of these engine types in BX/ZX/Xantia/405/306 etc. Do you know the one thing I've never had to do......take one apart because of failure.
In my experience they will go well over 225-250,000 miles without anything like this happening. The usual demise is a failed head gasket and warped head or perhaps a broken timing belt. At very high mileages they might get a bit noisy and smoke but it's a gentle progression from being OK to hitting the scrapyard.
This sudden "bang" is certainly indicitave of a component or material failure. I say this as you've now told us the rod has snapped. Before I wondered if it could have been an oil supply problem causing big end failure that led to the conrod escaping the block. But if that had been the fault you would have clearly seen it when the crank was exposed.
How do you prove it to Peugeot? Simple.....you push and push and push and push and then push them again.
Collect all the information you have plus worthwhile responses from resourses such as this. Keep niggling at them in a business-like and polite manner, add an extra layer of pressure in each communication....and do it by recorded delivery mail not phone or e-mail. Use crafty methods to find someone senior who you can target personally with the complaint, they will often get an assistant to deal with it but sometimes they might get it resolved in your favour (or at least a part success) just so it doesn't clog their desk.
Also hint at the fact the "media" is interested in this spate of failures that is comming to your attention, don't threaten to go public...just let them know you might.
Be really clear at the start what you want as a settlement and then stick out for it...but also be prepared to do a deal at about the 75% mark if you get a sniff of victory. This slight "climbdown" (as they can view it) can often conclude the matter.
You're going to need time and determination though. A major building society did something terrible to us a while back, they were so clearly in the wrong from day one but it took them some 8 months to agree a settlement. Then in making a settlement they got it all terribly wrong again and it took them a further two months to sort that out. They paid compensation in the end though, first for the original error and then a further amount for making the error in correcting the error.
The main hassle from our point of view was living the blasted problem day in day out.
Good luck.
David W
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He he he....
I've got a vision of a senior Peugeot executive opening a package in the morning and an oily (broken) con rod falling out onto his nice leather desk.
The fact that the conrod itself snapped and there was no evidence of bearing failure / damage is cleary indicative of the fact that there was something wrong in the first place, further compunded by their being a spate of such incidents.
I don't like your chance of getting anything of Peugeot, but you certainly won't get if you don't try!
Good luck indeed!
Richard
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Doddy, you mentioned your husband being a diesel engineer - does he have any friendly contact with an engine manufacturer such that he could have the broken conn rod metallurgically analysed?
Many years ago I suffered a broken crankshaft in an E93A Ford exchange engine whilst it was still being run-in. (The crankshaft broke into three and one bit came through the block and knocked off the starter motor - and I was only doing 30 mph! Likewise, I thought I had hit something!). Ford would not accept any claim because the engine was fitted in a home-made car and was "therefore an industrial application, not covered by a vehicle installation warrantee". I was too timid to take on a car giant in the courts and so eventually gave up my claim (albeit after 10 months of trying!). About two years later the senior metallurgist at the diesel engine manufacturer that I worked for offered to analyse the remains of the engine. I had this done, purely for interest, and it was found that vibration from a loose flywheel had caused fatigue failure of the crankshaft, made worse because the crankshaft pins were severely undersized (white metal bearings, not shells, in the E93A, so the regrinding diameter was decided on by the so-called 'engineer', not by the availability of shell bearings).
Years later, my wife had the drum of her twin-tub washing machine break free whilst it was spinning at top speed. It wrote off the machine and came very close to causing personal injury as it burst out through the lid. Again, my metallurgist friend analysed the remains of the drive mechanism and found that a serious design fault had led to fatigue which had caused the hub to break. The machine was well out of guarantee so I expected no compensation but I decided to press for correction of the potentially dangerous design. This time I did as David W says and pushed and pushed, making it absolutely clear that I was not going to give up and go away. Having at first denied any design fault, the machine manufacturer eventually accepted that there was a fault and modified the design - and they gave us a new top of the range (and modified) machine at almost no charge.
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doddy
Have come across many broken rads in my time, even an old Buick straight eight , rod out the side patch on block and got it working for a while as a seven.
Anyway if your rod has broken at just above bigend journal with no sign of seizure of the bearing it will be poor drop forge casting of the rod, as rods can hammer away for ages on bad bearings with out breaking.
Peugeot just want to avoid paying everyone out, typically french
If you want a engine to hammer and rev the backside off anything by a Fiat.
good luck
Reversionpulse
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Rp, Sorry to contradict you but if we're getting technical we need to be sure of our facts ...
Firstly, drop forging and casting are two entirely different processes so it would do no good at all for Doddy to go to Peugeot claiming that the failure was caused by "poor drop forge casting". In any case, it could be due to something else like, as has already been said, non-turbo rods being fitted in error.
Another possibility is a cost-reduced material spec that wasn't up to the job. For example, adding a small percentage of lead or sulphur to steel can give faster machining and longer tool life, but it is also likely to reduce the strength of the steel.
Secondly, (re: your next posting) Doddy has already confirmed that the oil feed on her engine was via L-shaped jets, therefore it is most unlikely to have been from the crankshaft oil drillings.
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Dizzney
We do seem to be a busy bee with all this corrective advice to others posts.
In my haste to keep the reply simple and not an over elaborate technical treatise on mentalurgy for her to use with regard to Peugeot ,I used the generic term "drop Forged" yes it should have read cast only.
But not wishing to go down the road of pressure casting,magna fluxing,ball peaning ,sonic testing ect ect.
The main point is if the fracture at the base is of a crystaline nature and shows no sign of ductile mallable tearing and no big end journal seizure then ,the fault will be with the composite used in the manufacture.
I have seen many rods with the webb stem greatly distorted but not fractured demonstrating the strength of the casting and ductability of the material used.
Peugeot obviously are aware of the problem but do want to know, doddy put another engine in and get on with sueing them if you want to or put it down to experience.
Many years of broken engine rebuilds leads me to this view.
Lastly if you had taken the trouble to understand the point that I was making regarding block oil sprays, I made it plain I was not talking peugeot, but saying it IS possible for an engine to run for many thousands of miles with only splash and oil mist.
However as you seem to know all of the answers I will not bother to post again.
ReversionPulse
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Why did I miss this thread earlier on?
Dizzy is quite right here. Also not just due to cost saving additions but the metallurgical processes in the foundry might be out thus increasing the likelihood of failure.
Eg Ford camshafts, and there I will have to leave it due to conflict of interests.
Problem is that in order to get an investigation by an expert witness which would stand up to any rudimentary questioning the cost is potentially so great that most people give up without ready and cheap access on the usual mate of a mate basis. The manufacturers know this, and of course they have their own in house team ready and waiting.
I realise in this specific instance its probably too late now, but I would wager that a proper metallurgical engineering failure investigation would provide some genuine evidence of design, material, operational or maintenance flaw to provide the solution. Its got to be one of those and beyond that impossible to speculate on the basis of the info provided.
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Ian Cook
The oil spray hole is usually drilled into the large rod end journal casting and is of course fed by the main big end oil gallery hole from the crankshaft,I have incredible actual found a tiny clearance drill broken off and lodged in the spray hole before now,only found when replacing shells,the engine had worked well otherwise.
Not I hasten to add a Puegeot.
ReversionPulse
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Doddy - this is the first time I've seen this thread as I'm new to HonestJohn. From my experience dealing with failures of this type I would have to say that your case needs to be rock solid. I would agree that you should get a metallurgical examination of the rod. Might I suggest that you visit the website www.jspubs.com which is the UK register of expert witnesses. Most of the experts listed would probably discuss the case informally with you. Another source of information could be the FER - the Federation of Engine Re-manufacturers, as they will probably have greater exposure to failed engines than most.
If you are going for the manufacturer you have to be clever - work out what arguments thay may have and have the answers ready. Even consider the cooling system as water entering the combustion chamber can cause hydraulic locking and can unnecessarily load the rods. I am not saying for one minute this contributed to the failure but it would help if you ruled this out amongst other factors. Often helps to retain an oil sample, just for the sake of completeness.
Best of luck - will watch this one.
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Doddy has given up on this one, see the post of 25/6 (I think), the duff engine has been sold for scrap. I can't say I blame her but I do like a good fight, so long as I'm not involved.
All theories on the causes of the failures are awaited with interest.
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I'll carry on driving Ford diesels then;may not be sophisticated but are tough.
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