As you might have gathered its a difficult one to give an exact answer too, but it does sound a little suspect/suspicious.
!st thing to do, imo, is to go a different, independant garage, and ask for their opinion on the problem (dont give them all the story at this stage). Then probably best to post back here for more comments? or give you enough info to go back to the 1st garage for their comments based on an independant report.
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Many thanks for all your replies.
As far as I know the head was a new one that they put on.
I don't know why the tappets went to start with. Could there have been something inherently wrong with the engine to start with? I have had the car for 4 years and it has always used a lot of oil, but nothing else has ever gone wrong with it.
The problem that I have is that the car is at the garage and they have said that they will fit a new engine for £600. He had said that he would try to get me a reconditioned one but that he couldn't find one. If I go to them and take the car away for a 2nd opinion they could turn round and tell me to get it done elsewhere, and there aint nowhere gonna do it for that price. It does make me think that they are feeling guilty about something to do it at that price, obviously making a loss.
I think I am stuck between a rock and a hard place at this stage because of the price they are going to charge and that I have managed to get a courtesy car out of them for the duration.
When I saw them today to pick up the courtesy car he said that my car had smoked out the whole garage this morning.
I do think the garage have done something to my car but I don't see a way to prove it now without having to pay full whack for the job to be done.
???? Thanks, Alex
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Did it smoke like that before any work was done by them?
Ask why they think it needs new engine now, after head has been done? Why did they not think it needed doing before? Was that a wrong diagnosis? Is this?
Tell them you need time to think maybe? But you definitely need another opinion before proceeding imo.
How long you got courtesy car for? Tell them you will keep the courtesy car til u have made up your mind? That might encourage them to cut you a little slack. But forcing your hand at this stage sounds like they have something to hide imo.
Dont rush into anything is probably my best advice.
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Hi Yorkiebar,
No, the car didn't smoke at all before this!
I did ask him what the problem was now and he said it was the rings and that meant a new engine.
I will try and find somewhere to do a second opinion. Unfortunately I have only been in this area for a few months so havn't found a good 'mechanic' yet.
I did phone my old one where I did live and he said he couldn't really understand what had happened!
I have an independent warranty - would they be willing to have something to do with a 2nd opinion do you think?
Ta,
Alex
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So the obvious question is....
if it didnt smoke before? Why is it now? Why have the rings suddenly gone? What was the EXACT reason the garage fitted a "new" head?
Sounds to me like they have made a major mistake and want you to pick up the bill?
If you have warranty cover? Why were they not involved in the original repair? But certainly worth asking them for an opinion and to repair it under "warranty".
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Hi,
The garage said that the warranty wouldn't cover the tappets as they were wear and tear.
All the garage said about fitting the new head was that something had happened to a spring that meant it needed the head replacing.
I will give the warranty place a ring.
Many thanks for your input, it really is appreciated.
Alex
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It concerns me that you say it alway's used lots of oil! even though it didn't smoke. You say the garage reckon they can fix for around 600. It sounds like they may be trying to help, it could be that they have just inherited a faulty engine to start with that once touched has provocked more trouble. Its possible it has glazed bores & didturbing the head has made matters much worse. Its the unknown with the cylinder head fiasco that makes you suspicoius. You will need to bear in mind that the warranty only covers major failure & doesn't cover wear & tear which the oil consumption may be attributed too. This may be one time when you will need to work with the garage & see if they can come to a satisfactory solution & they may well make a suggestion of what they may be able to claim on the warranty. Read all the small print first & try & work with the garage. I think you may well of had an engine that at some time in its life had severley overheated & could of caused ring damage or glazed bores
Doc
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Doc, you may well be right.
But I see the sudden extra smoke and suddenly needs new rings as more of a mistake than poor diagnosis.
Really need more to work on, but, was a compression test done etc? What spring job involves needing a new head that makes the smoking worse. They have head the head off once; was it taken off whilst hot? Is it 16v or 8v? Glazed bores would have been noticed surely and commented about too?
Just doesnt quite add up. And why did it need tappets? etc
That is why I strongly suggest 2nd opinion.
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Its smoking now but it wasn`t before..... When does it smoke most? Accelerating from a steady speed with a hot engine? Or take your foot off the the throttle at speed and let the car slow down and then speed up again?
Put another way, if you go down a long hill *foot off the throttle*, is there a big output of blue smoke at the bottom as soon as you floor the throttle, which then clears up?
Because I`m wondering whether the second hand head has sworn guides or valve stem seals and the garage is finding a way of getting money back after a second `home goal`.
That said, It would be helpful to know its previous oil consumption and as above the circumstances that any blue smoke appeared. Also what made you think it was the tappets, what were the symptoms?
There`s just something that`s not sounding right to me about the whole thing, but is this a `lost in translation ` situation?
OP, try to give us all as much info as possible about the engine and its previous symptoms and under what circumstances its blue smoking now. What does/did it sound/run like? is the original(Tappet) problem gone? what did this sound like etc.
You could get a second opinion, I really agree with that. Its a difficult one though because you`re saying the engine *used oil* and had a tappet problem prior to them getting it to work on. Has it been always serviced (oil changes) to manufacturers spec ? On a 47,000 mile engine these problems just should not be there....
Regards
Edited by oilrag on 17/02/2008 at 08:24
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just to add,
Is it an engine that`s not had regular oil and filter changes, has run its camshaft dry as a result of a blockage (hence worn tappets)suffered ring and bore wear and the garage has taken the lid off a can of worms?
Please don`t be offended, just trying to explore the situation with its multiple possible causes, from all angles.
Regards
Edited by oilrag on 17/02/2008 at 10:13
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Hi all,
I will try to answer the questions in turn.
It could well be that I have inherited a faulty engine, but how to tell now?
The warranty I have will cover problems that run on from an unwarrantied part - so if the tappets are down to wear and tear and cause other problems the other problems would be covered.
I am trying to keep an open mind about the garage and whether they are trying to help!
Yorkiebar - I don't know if a compression test was done. I don't think there was a spring job done, I think he was saying that a spring 'sprung' and caused a different problem.
It is an 8v.
The car was making a very loud tapping/knocking sound when it was started. If I then turned the car off and back on again after a minute the sound went.
Oilrag - It certainly wasn't smoking before. After the work it was smoking on start up and then on acceleration and when starting off after being still, say in traffic.
As I said, it has always used more than a normal amount of oil, but I am not an expert so don't know what others use! I guess I would top it up every couple of weeks or so. I didn't have any smoke.
The tappet sounds have gone now - that is what it originally went to the garage for.
The car has always had regular sevicing and oil changes - it has to anyway for the warranty.
I understand these problems should not be there on this mileage, indeed at double this mileage!
I'm certainly not offended by your questions! I would like to know what has brought this about.
I don't know if the car had the head off whilst hot or if it has been allowed to overheat - not during the time I've had it anyway, which is 4 years, so surely it would have come to a head well before now if that were the case?
Your comments are greatly appreciated, as I say I am a girl with probably more knowledge than some, but not nearly enough!
I am planning to speak to the warranty place on Monday - if I can get them to ask for a second opinion I might not alienate the garage, which I certainly don't want to do unless I have to. There is a possibility there was something waiting to happen to the car but why have the garage continued to cover up? It just makes me smell something not too nice!
Many thanks, Alex
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The bodge that springs to mind, this being an 8v, is if the garage used a compressor tool to extract the rockers, to allow the hydraulic tappet to be released, it's very easy if the mechanic is a bit ham fisted to snap the cam carrier if you don't make sure the pistons are not at TDC before starting.
No, I haven't made this error myself, but, I've seen the results of someone doing just that!
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I wonder if the oils getting down the valve stems on the new head rather than the piston rings?
Main thing though is the warranty, I would let the Garage get on with it and the warranty company pay the bill, or as much of it as possible.
As long as it runs OK after, does anything else matter? Sometimes its not worth digging further and the effort/trouble trying to get others to look at it counter productive in what can actually be gained.
You keep saying your only a girl, but you write better than a lot of blokes, if you hadn`t said it no one would have known ;)
Just a tip, when its fixed be sure a quality oil of the correct spec is used.
Regards
Edited by oilrag on 17/02/2008 at 13:42
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sorry about the "only" too late to edit it out....
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02 plate; you have had it 4 years. 47k miles; how many by you? Oil consumption always been same? Poorly run in?
8v tappet problem; diagnosed by whom? Garage diagnosed and did it or you told them thats what it was and they just did the work? Sounds like camshaft/bearings wear to me though?? Valve job made head needed? Hmm!
NC bodge/problem seems quite possible (apprentice given the easy! job to do?)
But if it wasnt smoking so badly before then I see it as a garage job to cure (or explain fully why it now needs an engine). If diagnosis is now engine, why did they take on tappet job?
Really really difficult to be exact on this one, so many variables and unknown. 2nd opinion really is good advice still.
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The car had about 23k on it when we got it and yes, oil has always been about the same.
I didn't tell the garage about the tappets as I didn't know what they were then!!!
I certainly agree that the job was probably given to a ham fisted apprentice or similar.
It certainly has never smoked before.
No probs about the 'only' shout as this is exactly what I intend to do with the warranty people and get them to sort it out now. I might even go blonde for the whole phone call! Gotta use all the avenues open to you ;o)
I will let you know what happens.
Many thanks again,
Alex
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Does the car smoke most heavily immeadiately after being restarted after being left standing a while then settle down a bit - usually if the oil is coming from the cylinder head this happens as the oil leaks past the faulty valves.
I would guess the garage have had a bit of a nightmare replacing the tappets. I'm not familiair with the latest vauxhall engine but would imagine somethings been tightened down in the wrong position and split a casting. ..or they got the timing marks lined up wrong and a valve hit the piston. It's quite common for this to cause the rings to stick in the grooves and then the engine will smoke badly.
Other posibility is they let a washer or nut etc. drop into the engine through the inlet manifold and this got into the cylinder and scored the cylinder bore and/or mangled the head.
Make sure you get the emissions checked after the new engine is fitted as the oil burning might have overheated/contaminated the catalyst causing an mot failure.
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Hi all,
Just an update for you.
The warranty will pay for the engine to be replaced so I am extremely relieved about that.
The garage were very reluctant to call the warranty place. I think their reaction tells a lot but I will just let them get on with it.
Thanks Hector, I will get the emissions checked when the work has been done.
I think I will chalk this one up to experience and just perhaps try a different garage next time!!!
Many, many thanks for all your replies. They have helped tremendously.
No doubt I will be back next time!
Thanks,
Alex
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I think the garage had something to hide? But right result for you, and good to see someone keeping us up to date with info.
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Well, you think things are all sorted and then they catch you in the gut unawares!
The warranty place are now saying they will not cover the repair. They had a guy go and have a look at the car and said that because the pistons etc had carbon deposits it showed excessive oil usage and so wont pay.
We all know that it used oil but that is not why it went into the garage in the first place. Maybe the garage 'disturbed' something by knackering the head which set other things off, I don't know.
Guess I'm gonna have to pay now. Still don't quite know how the garage are gonna do it for £600 when a new engine fitted anywhere else is £2000! The warranty place originally said they thought the garage were backpeddling fast but there you go.
:o(
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