Those of you that have been following the Honda Warranty thread may be aware that I have been having ongoing problems with my Accord losing power, and that it finally turned into a non-intermittant problem when it refused to start last Friday, pouring lots of black smoke out the back and only running for a couple of seconds on two cylinders.
After initial stress, I was actually thinking that this was a good thing, as at least it meant they could find the problem. My stress levels have just gone through the roof though, as I?ve just spoken to someone at the dealers who have the car, and they are investigating misfuelling as the most likely candidate.
Now, I have checked the last three tanks as I?ve got the receipts with me, and I?ve put diesel in both times. All but one of the last 40-50 tanks have been from the same Shell station, and I can provide receipts for all of them. I also always use the same CC for payment, so I can corroborate that way. But, my question is, if they are starting to manouver to get out of repairing the car, how the hell do I prove that I haven?t put a small amount of petrol in there?? It?s proving a negative, and we all know that can?t be done.
The only thing in my favour is that the last tank of Shell V-Power ran to 55.5 litres in a 65 litre tank, and I drive 60 miles before it hit problems. But, I?m now seriously worried and would appreciate all advice on what to do. Get an independent sample of the fuel from the tank ASAP? Sample from the Shell Station tank as well (although was on the 29th so might not be the same tank now I guess). All suggestions gratefully received.
Cheers,
Gord
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Go to the garage, and take a sample of fuel from your car. Label up the pot while someone from the grage watches. Say that you're going to get it tested independently.
This alone may be enough to get them to back off. If not, then you could actually get the fuel analysed, and see if there is any real evidence of contamination present at the moment.
I see where you are coming from about not being able to prove that you haven't misfuelled the car, but surely the burden of proof is on the garage to demonstrate that either the fuel is currently contaminated, or that the damage caused must be the result of contaminated fuel.
Your receipts and consistency in your fuelling habits will go a long way to showing that you are in the clear.
Number_Cruncher
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I should have thought that it's up to them to prove that you have "misfuelled" - if they can't, and try to shirk their responsibilities, you can take out an action against them.
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FT, being devil's advocate, what's to stop garage adding petrol to the sample themselves? Why they would do this rather than try and fix it I don't know, unless directed to do so?
Similar issue has affected lots of Ford drivers I believe.
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Bobby, unfortunately my lawyers have just made exactly the same point. Given the car has not been 'sterile' since the fault manifested on Friday, the fuel tests would prove nothing either way. :-(
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Are they talking about recent fuel, or at some distant point in the past?
It doesn't seem worth checking your receipts - if you did the usual 50L or so then you probably wouldn't have even got off the forecourt, never mind 60 miles.
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What about if you turn up unannounced at the garage with someone who will organise the fuel test, and take the fuel from somewhere near the engine? If the engine doesn't run, then presumably that fuel will be clean regardless of whatever they might put in the tank.
I might be naive here but I think it's probably unlikely they'll try to contaminate the tank. It only takes one person to see it and disagree with it, and the garage doesn't have a leg to stand on.
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I presume that your credit card co, and possibly shell, will be able to produce copies of receipts for fuel from their systems.
I need these to claim mileage so I have a stack of VAT receipts which (from Sainsburys) say at the top "CITY DIESEL" I also have a Shell receipt from April 06 which stated "Diesel" - from London Road garage, Lichfield.
If you have enough of these it would indicate you have not put petrol in.
If it was a contaminated batch it would affect more than your car (remember Tesco, or was it Morrison last year!)
If, like me, you run it til the light comes on and then fill it you would not get far, although they might argue you put a gallon in and then topped up with Diesel (but why would you do this with your own car?).
One other issue (may be a red herring) I believe that yours, like mine may have done a few miles in France and I also believe that French Diesel contains a certain percentage bio-diesel. Honda say do not use biodiesel, but they do sell the car in France!
The double negative also works the other way - they cannot prove that they didn't mis-fuel it themselves! And teh dealers don't normally have pumps of their own so would take the car somewhere to fuel it.
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FT being devil's advocate what's to stop garage adding petrol to the sample
Faith. The OP has many receipts, habitually keeping them, including very recent ones - "the balance of probability".
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Firstly while the car has not been "sterile" if the sample is clean then it proves it is not recent misfueling.
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I.e. if it is determined to be a recent occurance then it is only the positive that is not proven.
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If it is petrol it would not be a matter of having filled with diesel in error because as has been said you would not have got more than a couple of miles if you had added, say, 50 ltrs to 5 or 10 ltrs residule in the tank.
So either:
1/ You have a habit of putting a tenners worth in a half full tank, and have put a tenners worth of petrol in allowing the car to still run though causing damage.
2/ Or you have put some petrol in, realised your error while fueling and continued to fuel with diesel.
3/ Or it is contamination at a filling station.
You would know if 1/ or 2/ so 3/ is most likely unless somone else has fueled the car for you?
Edited by cheddar on 04/02/2008 at 18:20
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Who is to say the car was not misfuelled before you ever set eyes on it?
It could have happened whilst in transit to the supplying dealer, I would be asking them to prove that they (assuming they are the supplying dealer) had not misfuelled it prior to your purchase.
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All, thanks very much for all the advice. To answer in turn:
Bill P ? they have not actually accused me of mis-fuelling at the moment. If there is an accusation then I think it will be short term ? I have receipts for about the last six months to prove historic proper fuelling.
I managed to speak to the service manager this evening, and got more details. Basically one of the first things that they check is fuel in this situation ? they checked the fuel by emptying a couple of litres out, and ?while it looked like diesel, it smelt like petrol?. They have left it overnight in a container to see if it separates. I can only assume it won?t, but the smell may be because it had a full tank of Shell V-power diesel and the additives smell?? Don?t know, but I have the last three receipts, and all clearly state that they are for diesel.
David H ? I?m inclined to agree with you, I?ve had not the slightest hint that the garage I?m using isn?t completely straight, I?m just being paranoid. I?m certainly not accusing anyone of anything.
ijws15 ? You?re quite right, I have receipts. Trouble is, it doesn?t rule out me putting a couple of litres in and paying cash ? I?m going to try and get the garage CCTV tomorrow if they will cooperate.
You are quite right that it?s done some miles in France (not as many as I would like as it broke down for the duration of the holiday there), but only about 2500 out of the 60k on the clock, so I think it?s unlikely to be too much of a factor. Far more likely in my view is that the fact that it ran with the oil badly overfilled for about 1500 miles after a Honda main dealer service could have caused problems. Comments from those more expert than I?
Cheddar ? nobody except me has fuelled the car, probably ever. I?m going to the Shell garage I use for 99% of my fuel in the morning to check that they have not had any problems and to see if they will help me out on CCTV.
TU ? if someone had misfuelled it before I bought it, then that was 2 years and almost 60k miles ago ? I?d say that was well beyond anyone proving anything!
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Trivial point perhaps, but I have noticed that the predominant pong from super-diesel (V-Power or Ultimate) is not nearly as dieselly as the common stuff, it just smells solventy and chemical to me - this would be easy to demonstrate by getting another litre and having a side by side comparison that might forestall any further aspersions.
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A really very excellent idea Manatee. I shall be buying a couple of litres from the same pump tomorrow morning.
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GordonM another thought... what had been in the container they put the diesel in before.... petrol? Take your sampe of Shell and get another sample out when you're there.
The overfilling of oil (which I remember you posting) sounds like questions might need answering too.
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Trivial point perhaps but I have noticed that the predominant pong from super-diesel (V-Power or Ultimate) is not nearly as dieselly as the common stuff it just smells solventy and chemical to me - this would be easy to demonstrate by getting another litre and having a side by side comparison that might forestall any further aspersions.
I know what you mean re the respective smells though normal shell smell more like Ult etc than other std diesels IMO.
Smell is subjective and I dont think any of us would detect 10% or even 20% petrol in diesel with our noses.
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>>>> Cheddar ? nobody except me has fuelled the car probably ever. >>
Misfueling is more of an issue when you dont know the history of the car and therefore cannot be so forthright with the dealer.
My real point was that I dont think misfueling is likely so have the test done as the garage wants then if it proves no petrol is present that is your lever to get a warranty job, because as I said the positive is not proven.
Though if petrol is present put pressure on your regular filling station.
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>>Far more likely in my view is that the fact that it ran with the oil badly overfilled for about 1500 miles after a Honda main dealer service...
Gordon, this caught my attention.
[1] this can generate problems in some engines (aeration of oil by crankshaft)
[2] I cannot make any link between this and your fuel problem at the moment.
[3] can you quantify "badly overfilled"
[4] read your driver's manual carefully looking for any dire warnings about overfilling with oil and let us know.
[5] I know this doesn't help your case, but 15 years ago and more, manufacturers were actually recommending adding small quantities of petrol to diesel tanks during very cold weather!
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My old Accord tourer had to have a new Bosch high pressure pump replaced under warranty, (56k miles and around GBP1000 +VAT). The dealer had to get special authorisation from Honda UK. This was given and the pump replaced. Everything was OK until the car was replaced. I hear pump related problems are more common than you might imagine on this car.
In my case the car mostly was fuelled with Shell regular diesel, (the cheapest type). Ran OK on this stuff.
Q.
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In cynical mode, I would suggest that due to unexpectedly high warranty claims Honda are experiencing with their diesel systems, they have jumped on the band wagon of "contaminated fuel" so brilliantly launched by Ford a few years ago.
It's an odd thing that we all buy our fuel on the high street and some makes of diesel vehicle with well engineered and filtered fuel systems never see this problem in their lifetime.
Your garage has displayed an in-depth knowledge of such matters (in fact a diesel/petrol mixture will not separate out in any proportions, they are fully miscible). Water of course, does separate. By all means collect samples from the engine end of the system before an independent witness. Samples should be collected in pairs, labelled and sealed with a tamper resistant label.
If you want a very rough and ready test for petrol contamination (the one I used to use), use a pipette to introduce a known volume of fuel onto a watch glass (like a saucer). Take a control sample of known good diesel fuel and similarly deposit this on an identical glass.
Position the two samples on a level surface and with a marker pen, draw a line where the fuel meniscus is positioned on the glass. Leave in a warm place and check the levels after 12 hours or so. Diesel fuel will exihibit virtually no evaporation over this period but a dish of petrol would be all gone. Obviously, this test becomes less sensitive in the case of minimal contamination, but in this case, damage to a good fuel system is correspondingly far less likely.
I wish you well with this problem, keep a clear head and apply cold logic to it. You are clearly dealing with people who have no specialised knowledge of diesel systems (or Physics or Chemistry come to that) so your diplomatic skills may be sorely stretched.
Logic always wins in the end though, especially if it goes to court.
659.
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I?ve been down to the dealers this morning, and appear to have made progress.
I followed Manatee?s advice, and when I went to the Shell station this morning I got two litres of V ?Power diesel from the same pump: fortunately they have not had a delivery since I filled up.
I took this, and receipts for the last three tanks of fuel, down to the dealers. They kept a copy of the receipts, I have the originals.
The fuel had not separated (as you?d expect ? as 659 says they are fully miscible and if they had I should have stolen the sample, patented the method and made my fortune!). It also, if anything, smelt less ?potent? than the pure V-Power sample ? it?s only about 85%. The service manager tells me that he is now satisfied that there is no fuel contamination, and will proceed with other work on that basis immediately.
As I?ve said before, I don?t have any worries about the honesty of the garage, so for the moment I?m going to take him at his word. I should get an update later this afternoon.
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Sounds like your garage are having a bit of a strugggle with Honda HQ over paying for the warranty work. Also sounds like they are trying to fight your corner for you.
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To be fair it is only understandable that mistreatment should be ruled out prior to a warranty claim being entertained.
However it should be down to the dealer / manu to prove mistreatment and not for the consumer to prove the contrary.
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Gordon M, please keep us updated with this. As a diesel fan, I am most concerned why common rail keep failing. Personally I am hoping that the next generation CR proves to be somewhat more reliable, if not I will be making a return to Petrol.
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BMDubya, IMHO it's because the latest generation of diesels have very highly stressed components, which make problems and failure more likely. Factor that into the sheer number of diesels on UK roads and you've got the situation we're currently in.
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As I read it, they have not asked you to prove it was not contaminated?
They have taken the car with the symptoms/faults described and obvious and would be poor at their job if they did not consider misfuelling as a possibility. They have been honest about this and told you their thoughts.
They have now agreed misfuelling is no longer on their check sheets so are investigating further.
Why is the garage/dealer getting such a hard time? Engine problems are down to Honda themselves and the garage need to claim any warranty work from them, so they have to be justified in any claim.
Some garages cant win whatever they do? This one sounds like its right behind you from where I am reading it.
Edited by yorkiebar on 05/02/2008 at 13:16
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Yorkiebar, you're absolutely right, I've made the point several times that I believe the garage to be honest and not trying to stitch me up in any way. They were also completely justified to exclude misfuelling, my paranoia is that it's such a hard one to disprove. There is no way that I can prove that 1 or 2 litres didn't go in the car, but also no way that they can prove it did.
After hearing horror stories of massive bills following misfuelling allegations I'm a bit jumpy. I've not got the cash or the time, so this is a back covering exercise. Now that the point is sorted I hope and expect that it will be sorted quickly.
Edited by Gordon M on 05/02/2008 at 13:36
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Well don't forget to post the update, I'm sure a lot of people are very interested in seeing the outcome! :-)
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They think it's the EGR again. Part will arrive Friday so confirmation should follow sometime fairly shortly after.
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No, sorry, there won't be any news until Tuesday. I've been charged another £41.50 by my insurance company for another week's insurance on the loan Civic.
So, I'm into week 8 without the car in the first 25 months of ownership. I'm going to start another thread on my options - I've completely lost faith in this car, the fault was nothing to do with the electrical systems, and I want rid of it.
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Just spoken to the garage again. Apparently the EGR has now been replaced, and all appears well. They have put a few miles on it over yesterday afternoon and this morning and it appears to be running smoothly.
So, I'm going to collect it tomorrow. Here's hoping...
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I have the car back.
Initial impression is that it's fine. Pulls cleanly from low revs with little or no lag. They have, as they promised, put about 60 miles on it testing it.
Hopefully that's an end to it - I can try and come to a settlement with Honda over the ridiculous inconvenience (if this is a fix, then it was the EGR all along - the suggested problem from December, before the car spent 4 weeks off the road).
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