I have a car with a semi-automatic gearbox. It's a Jan'07 model so well
within the manufacturer's warranty period. I have posted previously about the very snatchy nature of the clutch take-up and finally after a number of attempts I have got my service garage to admit there is a problem with the clutch. However, they want me to commit to pay for the new clutch & fitting (approx £1500-2000) - they say they will want to examine the failing clutch before any admission of a faulty component. They have suggested that the clutch failure is due to mis-use i.e. holding the car on inclines using the clutch rather than the brakes. This is a ludicrous suggestion on three counts firstly, I simply do not follow this practice and never have in 10+yrs of owning cars with auto boxes; secondly, I live and drive almost entirely around Warwick where, as anyone who knows the area will confirm, there are precious few inclines where you can hold your car whether on the clutch or brakes. Thirdly, the car had only done 5,000 miles when this problem started - it has even now only done 9,500 and even if I did practice holding it on inclines with the clutch, surely there's no way it should burn out so quickly. The situation has now deteriorated to the extent where it is impossible to inch forward or backward without bunny-hopping accompanied by some serious banging noises from the general direction of the transmission. In my view and that of various passengers whose opinion I have also asked, the car is somewhere between undriveable and unroadworthy.
I am concerned that the manufacturer is simply going to pin this on me rather than the failing component. They say they will examine the clutch when it is replaced (at my committed expense of course) and then make a decision. I have zero confidence of a fair assessment, and would want the clutch examined simultaneously by an independent assessor of my own choosing, otherwise there will undoubtedly be an institutionalised closing of ranks at the manufacturer / service garage, and I will be left with no comeback. I'm currently over a barrel in that if I don't commit to pay for the work, they won't do it. And once I've paid for it to make the car driveable again, what chance do I have of recovering my money?
I would welcome any suggested course of action
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 16/12/2007 at 10:58
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Been under the stairs overnight this one so a free bump.
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I'd try another dealer - whatever you do don't commit any money to it. What have The Makers said? Contact them direct.
Even if you hold the clutch on every hill for a new clutch to go in 11 months is ludicrous except with serious abuse.
I live and drive almost entirely around Warwick where as anyone who knows the area will confirm there are precious few inclines where you can hold your car whether on the clutch or brakes.
You'd be surprised! Though I think The Butts is the only through route where it's praticable.
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Mike Farrow
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 16/12/2007 at 11:27
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If you have a finance agreement on the car get the finance company involved.
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This may be becoming common industry practice. I had a Hyundai Sante Fe clutch go under warranty. I had to agree to the cost of the strip down and replace IF the defect was not found to be a manufacturers/parts defect.
It was an uncomfortable feeling however there were no problems. It may be that the dealers are covering themselves if the problem is clearly caused by misuse. However I would suggest that it could lead to problems if there was a dispute.
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Fullchat
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I suppose its better than what they used to, which was to strip the car down then hold you to ransome.
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Many (most?) manufacturers specifically exclude clutch components from their warranty. A bad driver (one who rides the clutch continually) can see off a clutch in a few thousand miles. A good check is to look for burning of the lining and thermal discolouration of the metal parts at the centre of the friction plate - indicating long-term slippage and overheating.
With a semi-automatic the situation is more complicated because the failure could be due to some defect in the release mechanism allowing the unit to slip more than it should.
The best thing would be to allow the garage to go ahead, but on condition that the old parts are retained and passed to you for independent inspection by an appropraitely qualified and accredited engineer. You would then be in a position to recover any charges the garage makes if your engineer verfies that the parts are at fault - may take a Small Claims action, but worth it for £1-2k.
I don't see that you have any alternative - an 'independent' is unlikely to want to get involved with one of these semi-autos, they can be a nightmare...
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Many (most?) manufacturers specifically exclude clutch components from their warranty. A bad driver (one who rides the clutch continually) can see off a clutch in a few thousand miles. A
A friend of ours just bought a 97 immaculate Dicovery with a gen 40 odd thou on it, it used to belong to the local lord of the manor. It came with a raft of paperwork. Ity showed over the last 10 years receipts for 5 clutches!
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A friend of ours just bought a 97 immaculate Dicovery with a gen 40 odd thou on it it used to belong to the local lord of the manor. It came with a raft of paperwork. Ity showed over the last 10 years receipts for 5 clutches!
5 Clutches and he STILL bought it?? (Out of curiosity - any g'box and engine replacements too?)
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I live and drive almost entirely around Warwick where as anyone who knows the area will confirm there are precious few inclines where you can hold your car whether on the clutch or brakes.
My morning commute includes coming off the M40 at J15, and I regularly see people holding their cars on the slight incline up to the traffic lights using only the clutch - sometimes for 3-4 minutes at a time.
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My morning commute includes coming off the M40 at J15 and I regularly see people holding their cars on the slight incline up to the traffic lights using only the clutch - sometimes for 3-4 minutes at a time.
Right - but the point I was making was that it's not like I live in the Peak District or the Lake District - the Warwick / Leamington area is more like Holland. And just out of interest, how do you know for sure that queuers coming off at J15 are using the clutch? No brake lights could mean using the handbrake.
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And just out of interest how do you know for sure that queuers coming off at J15 are using the clutch? No brake lights could mean using the handbrake.
Heh heh, good one!
;-) :-P
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>No brake lights could mean using the handbrake.
Not if they're doing what I see a lot of - a constant seesaw motion of ease forward-roll back. Presumably that half-second advantage when the amber light comes on could be crucial.
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Which car it is?
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Car details have been deliberately left out by the OP in case it compromises his case furhtr down the line.
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do people know how to hold a car on the handbrake these days?
personally i think not
its always clutch hold
or foot on brake
or nowt
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"never have in 10+yrs of owning cars with auto boxes;"
Is that the clue? because a torque converter auto can be used in a holding, creeping sort of way that would surely burn out the clutch on a modern semi-auto, if the owner were unaware that there was a regular clutch in there burning out on being held on a ramp or slight slope?
Regards
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"never have in 10+yrs of owning cars with auto boxes;" Is that the clue? because a torque converter auto can be used in a holding creeping sort of way that would surely burn out the clutch on a modern semi-auto if the owner were unaware that there was a regular clutch in there burning out on being held on a ramp or slight slope?
Different driving techniques. To hold with a semi-auto requires the right throttle pressure. To hold with a regular auto requires the footbrake (except on occasions when the gradient is just right) else you'll creep forward. I use the footbrake to hold my semi-auto on inclines - when I remove it, the brakes continue to hold for 2 seconds to allow time to press the throttle and engage the clutch. I couldn't be faffed trying to hold it on the engine anyway - too much playing around with throttle pressure.
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Not if they're doing what I see a lot of - a constant seesaw motion of ease forward-roll back. Presumably that half-second advantage when the amber light comes on could be crucial.
ONly if you have the timing right, so you are on the forward seesaw when it turns to amber.
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< Ulla>
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I've never driven a semi-auto, so how would you hold it (to burn out the clutch) on a slope? Would you have to give it some gas to start to engage the clutch, or does it have some kind of "hill-hold" type feature that uses the clutch (rather than brakes) to prevent rolling back?
It sounds to me like a fundamental design issue if the clutch can be allowed to slip for long periods.
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I've never driven a semi-auto
And be thankful BP you haven't missed much!
We have to load these things onto trucks which is effectively 'steep hill close manoeuvering' and its pure hell.
You cant hold these things on the hill with the clutch and thats the problem with them, when your close quarters you need to slip the clutch sometimes to gain power but with minimal movement and it just can't be done, the clutch is either in or out.
Imagine trying to drive with your foot on the throttle and your mate operating the clutch, thats about as near a definition of driving a semi i can come up with.
I'm sure i've bored you all before with it but for petes sake when test driving one of these things do some close manoeuvering maybe including climbing a kerb (which we all need to do sometimes when parking), and try in vain not to leap into the object you're trying to avoid.
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gordonbennet, from your description I might try one out of curiousity one day but don't want one.
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Two smarts and two DSG auto clutch cars and I have never have any problems in close manouvering - it just takes a bit of practice, just like you need practise to hold a manual car on a hill using gas and clutch.
Diesel DSG is better than smart as tickover torque will allow creep, even on quite steep inclines. Smart requires gas to engage the clutch, DSG engages it as soon as the footbrake is released.
BTW the OP states in 10 years he has NEVER used the torque converter as a 'hill hold' device.
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BTW the OP states in 10 years he has NEVER used the torque converter as a 'hill hold' device.
>>
I lied. I did it once in 2002, and again three years later. You get the gist....
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In reply to the op, my brother in law had something similar when he ran into clutch problems with his 45,000 mile Passat TDI within the warranty period. The problem was not the slip you would associate with wear, but a snatchy, "grabby" action accompanied by a violent judder as the clutch started to bite. I took the car around the block, and it was on the borderline of being undriveable.
The dealer quoted £850 to replace the clutch, and another £450 if the flywheel needed replacing at the same time. At first there was "no way" it would be covered under warranty. Then after pressing them, they said they were prepared to take the car apart, and have the parts sent off to VW for analysis. If it was found to be a manufacturing defect, VW would pay. However, this would mean the car being off the road for "about two weeks", or him having to stump up the cash and be reimbursed. This relied also on scrupulous honesty from a) the VW dealer on the flywheel front, and b) VW themselves on the warranty eligibility (and again the dealer to be honest about VW's decision - presumably there is more profit in a chargeable retail job than a VW warrranty claim)
A local VW specialist offered to do the whole lot, with flywheel, and using genuine VW parts, for £900. Having your car in bits in a dealership, or having paid up in advance are not good positions to negotiate from, particularly when there are too many vested interests to be sure that you'll get an honest reply from the manufacturer and dealer. After much deliberation, and convinced he was going to end up paying the "full whack" £1300 anyway, he stumped up the £900 to the indie and had the job done there. It solved the problem and the clutch worked perfectly until he flogged the car a year later.
He since spoke to a few other owners of 6 speed Passat diesels who had had the same problem - one guy twice in 25,000 miles. In all cases, VW were claiming it was a "one off" and they'd need to analyse parts for a warranty claim, after taking the customer's car to bits and rendering it undriveable.
Whatever happened to the customer always being right? Or even being presumed right until proven otherwise instead of vice-versa?
Cheers
DP
--
04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
Edited by DP on 18/12/2007 at 10:43
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I've driven only one semi-auto (Toyota Auris) and didn't like it - it behaved like hiccups on fully auto mode on lower speed. I thought if Toyota can't make it right, probably others won't do it either.
I still continue to believe semi-autos are more evil they fully automatic ;)
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After much deliberation and convinced he was going to end up paying the "full whack" £1300 anyway he stumped up the £900 to the indie and had the job done there. It solved the problem and the clutch worked perfectly until he flogged the car a year later.
Couldn't the indie have pursued the warranty claim with VW? I thought this was possible provided genuine manufacturer parts are used. Anyway, with my problem starting at only 5k miles, I'm not in the mood to let my manufacturer or dealer off the hook - even if it means the SCC.
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I don't know whether an update would prove of interest. The car in question was (and still is) a C
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