The Honda is due for replacement at the beginning of March next year (4 months) so am about to start test drives. Like for like swop would be 24k list and would mean buying up on the lease again, I want to save this money and put it into the retirement fund so this is out. Children have both left home in the last 6 months.
Requirements:
It is a company car so low CO2 (Probably Diesel) to keep the tax down
Economical
Decent size inside and big boot (Don't really need all the space the Honda has but probably an estate).
Climate is a must and heated seats preferred
Reliable, I do not pay to fix it but I don't like being stood beside the road waiting for recovery (so not French or Italian).
Reasonably attractive (so no Toyotas)
Suitable for long distances (We drive to the south of France twice a year)
Don't need it quite as fast as the Honda but it has to be quiet and comfortable at 70-75mph.
Capable of high milages - Honda has done 112k in 44 months.
Target list price of sub 19k - again for tax reasons.
Will probably have the car for 4 years.
Shortlist so far is:
Skoda Octavia 1.9 or 2.0 - looking like favourite but snobs in the family disagree
Golf Estate 1.9
Focus Estate 1.8
Astra Estate
Mazda 6 but CO figure might exclude it
Am open to alternatives
Views invited . . . . . . . .
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The Octavia is a fine car - look to the comfort or elegance trim levels, the classic has most of the toys you'd need, but is gloomy - all the fittings are black, with added black highlights ;-) If boot space is vital but an estate isn't, consider a Superb - it'd be very comfy with its long wheelbase on the run to France.
The new Mondeo looks good, and covering high mileage in a short time suggests you're in the target market for the TDCi diesel (which, it has been suggested here, is smooth and economical when new, but may not endure old age well).
Left of field, the new Laguna has a 3 year/150,000km warranty, so if Renault's confidence isn't misplaced, it could be worth a look. There's a 1.5 dCi diesel which initial road tests in the Irish press suggest is driveable enough and you'd get good CO2/tax figures from it.
Or if you liked the Honda, would the FRV, CRV or Shuttle fit the bill?
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New Citroen C5 looks great, due out Spring 2008. Subaru Legacy, with new boxer diesels, also due out then.
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Just my tuppence, the Honda has been good for you and by all i hear good for many others as well so unless you want a change, replace with a ex demo or find an internet/broker purchase and replace like with like.
Have to say i don't hear many stories if woe from Honda owners.
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It is a company car on lease so am tied to a new car.
Higher CO figues will rule out 4 wheel drive except possible the Skoda in lower trim but I don't really need it. Would have helped on 2 days out of 1350 with the Honda - would not have helped much because I would still have been stuck behind others.
Don't want a Renault - experience on our fleet is that they have terrible reliability. I don't need a good warranty (company lease car), I want a car in which I can be confident that it will start when I get in and only stops when I want it to.
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Mondeo is too wide, wife would not drive it. She has only just started driving the Honda and conceded that it was easier to drive than her EOS.
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Thought I would check on the previous comment and according to the web-sites the Mondeo is SEVEN inches wider than the Accord (excluding mirrors)
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As I own an Octavia 2.0 TDI DSG Lauren & Klement I'm going to be biased but it is a good car and you have the choice of the DSG if you want an auto. The 2.0 TDI is a different beast to the 1.9 - I've not had a 1.9 but from what others say the 2.0 is more refined (well as refined as PD engines go!) and has better grunt for not much loss in MPG.
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First demos I have asked for are 1.9 Golf SE and a 2.0 Octavia Elegance - will see how they compare.
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Honda are due to reveal the new Accord next March with a more powerful, cleaner and more econimical diesel engine. Depends if you can wait that long....
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there are a few cars around now that are under the 120g/km CO limit, which means 10% (or 13%) BIK
There is an Audi A3 for £17k in this bracket now
Might be worth a look for you
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MINI Clubman D? But I doubt if you'd get delivery by March.
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Ian - I'd strongly suggest you go for the 2.0 TDI Golf estate - that's what I've got and I'm delighted so far (2 months and 3500 miles). What Car has a test this month of a 1.9 and their conclusion is that it's a great car but that is the worst engine for it.
As it comes (unlike the Golf hatch) in SE trim with the 2.0 TDI engine, it's good value at just under £18k, so I wouldn't think you'd have a problem with lease rates and it's under your target price.
The Octavia is very similar - I liked it a lot on test drive, but the Golf estate came out just in time and I think it'll hold its value a bit better than the Skoda (and a whole lot better than a Focus - but maybe that isn't a concern if it's a leased company car). Certainly go for it if there is some reason you can't have the 2.0 Golf. You also have a choice with the Octavia between 140 and 170 bhp diesel engines.
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Reasonably attractive....
The only reasonably attractive car on the list is the 6, so go for that.
You will also hopefully find it a reasonable, long-lasting, replacement for the Honda, rather than one of the rattly Euro-sheds.
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Done some calculations over the weekend, the Mazda with its CO2 emissions (167g) will be around £50-70 a month MORE simply on fuel and tax so it is out (Higher figure is comparison with the 1.9(137g)). Not a lot to chose between the Golf and the Octavia. Astra is also high on tax (159g) with Focus competitive (139g). Each 5g extra co means the tax bill rises by 5% of car value. Have not got access to the system yet so don't know what lease values will be.
Sat in an Octavia Elegance with the Luxury pack (unfortunately the battery was disconnected) and it is nice, feels better than the Golf (only a Match saloon) and the Focus (Model?). Also the Octavia boot is BIG. But you can get heated cloth seats in the Golf, in the Octavia you have to have leather and you can't get them at all in the Focus - car stands outside.
Not seen a Golf Estate yet - dealers say they don't have them long. First test drives are 1.9 TDI Golf SE Estate and 2.0 TDI Elegance Estate so get to sample both cars and both engines. Will probably have each for around a week.
As an afterthought the new rules mean a like for like swop of the Honda would put the tax up from 17% of car value to 20% of car value! Who says the government is targeting reduced co emissions!
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Thought this would stimulate more discussion, and a few off-the-wall suggestions but. . .
So far Skoda have not managed to come up with a demonstrator. I have a back problem so asked for an L&K to be sure of getting the leather seat and see how my back likes/doesn't like it.
New Focus - Ford cannot say when they will have a demonstrator - the press can drive them but potential customers can't. So not a Focus.
Two VWs booked as they could not source a 1.9SE so I get a 1.9S and a 2.0 SE (the local dealer sold his 1.9SE demonstrator!) One next week, one in January.
Also going to try a 1.7 Astra - If I get it in white will I be treated as White van man and will people keep out of my way on the motorways? Not sure I want to look like a copier repair man though!
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Passat diesel estate is well within budget. If you go for the 1.9 S it is around the same price as a Golf estate. Ticks all the boxes especially if the bills are paid by someone else.
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GWS - Just got access to the quote system and golf SE is just about on my allowance, I bought up to get the Honda and don't want to do that again. Passat would be too big for her indoors
Speaking of the better half she has now put her foot down and said she wants a BMW ! ! !
Doesn't see the logic that the difference between a Golf SE estate and a BMW 318 touring (which is not big enough inside) would pay for quite a good holiday for the two of us. I know which I would rather have!
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Coming up to 24 hours with the Golf 2.0 TDI SE demo.
Impressions:
Engine noisier than the Honda, cabin seem sparse, ride a bit softer and it pitches a little on my suspension test road (Longton Green to Rugeley across the edge of Cannock Chase).
Seats are good and with a few extras it would fit the bill, on lease it is cheaper than the Skoda which has a slightly bigger boot.
Golf has a false boot floor to make it level and offer a convenient hiding place.
Boot release from the remote does not work!
This engine is easy to stall as you roll into a junction - if you are slightly late getting your foot on the clutch it stops.
Now the question: There are two versions - DPF and non-DPF, the DPF has better out of town economy but costs more on lease. Both have the same CO2 figure. What are the benefits of the DPF?
Apparently Skoda can't come up with a demo until February!
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>Boot release from the remote does not work!
Have you tried pressing it twice in quick succession? That's how it's worked on my last two cars - presumably to make it harder to operate by mistake.
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"What are the benefits of the DPF?"
Having owned a non DPF and DPF diesel 2.0TDi Audi the only benefit to me is not having to clean soot off the exhaust pipes and not having a cloud of soot and smoke if you floor it.
You pay £425 extra for the privilege of having cleaner air and less soot coming out of your Golf exhaust, hence the higher lease cost.
What they don't like is lot's of short stop/start journeys. They need a good blast on a regular basis to keep the filter clean.
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What cleans it, Davey? Is it the exhaust getting hot enough to burn off the soot?
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"What are the benefits of the DPF?"
Having owned a non DPF and DPF diesel 2.0TDi Audi the only benefit to me is not having to clean soot off the exhaust pipes and not having a cloud of soot and smoke if you floor it.
You pay £425 extra for the privilege of having cleaner air and less soot coming out of your Golf exhaust, hence the higher lease cost.
What they don't like is lot's of short stop/start journeys. They need a good blast on a regular basis to keep the filter clean.
Press and hold the boot release button.
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I thought the DPF only comes on the 170PS model. That's what a friend was told who was looking recently (and the salesman didn't know why). VW's website seems to back this up:
www.volkswagen.co.uk/new_cars/golf/engines#
Choose the engines from the drop down list.
DPF is Diesel Particulate Filter - one route to meeting the stringent EuroIV emissions standards. Euro IV compliance = cheaper company car tax for a given CO2 figure.
Cheers
DP
--
04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
Edited by DP on 14/12/2007 at 15:33
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DP - OP post is about the Golf Estate which has this info in the brochure:
? These engines are also available with optional DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) at £425 RRP. For full information on DPF please refer to the
new Golf Estate flyer or contact your Volkswagen retailer
In the tables ? relates to 1.9 and 2.0TDI engines.
There is also a warning that DPFs are not suited to extended urban traffic use or use on the Channel Islands (due to 40mph limit I assume).
Edited by daveyjp on 14/12/2007 at 15:50
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Just to clarify on the boot release - both our VAG cars are the same in that you need to press the button for a second or two (one lengthy press) to unlock the boot. On the Golf there is no visible indication the bootlock has engaged whilst on the Skoda there is a healthy clunk.
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Ian - if you go for the Golf or Octavia you may be safer not to bother with the DPF. One of the magazines has run an Octavia vRS diesel on long-term test and has had the filter clog up several times - leaving the car in limp-home mode. Best not to opt fot it until they can make it reliable.
If you want 170 bhp and an estate you'll have to have the Skoda. But my 140 bhp Golf has more than adequate performance - a little noisy under acceleration but otherwise I'm delighted with it so far.
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so the DPF is a VAG verion of the infamous FAP on french cars. I presume then that it has a similar cost to be replaced or cleaned at some point?
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No the Germans have a solution which doesn't involve fluids which need refilling at great expense or filters which need replacing.
The filter collects soot which is burnt off when the exhaust gets hot - this is why DPF fitted cars are no good if they spend all the time pootling around towns. They need regular motorway runs to allow this process to happen effectively.
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Octavia Elegance1.9TD delivered Wednesday, goes back next Wednesday.
This feels a very well put together car, Nice clunk to the doors, interior feels very nice. Not as quick as the 2.0 golf but quieter and more economical. Based on trip computer the 1.9t is around 5-8 mpg better than the 2.0.
Suspension set up seems softer but it does not pitch on poor roads as the Golf does (perhaps it is a 2.0 setup thing - will see next week).
Have not tried the cases in the boot yet, something for daylight at the weekend.
MP3 CD player is good, also has a socket for theMP3 player I don't have and a CD changer (wasted!).
SWMBO was distainful when she got in on Wednesday night, didn't like the seat, then managed to adjust it so it was comfy, 10 minutes later she said "there is a lot more room in here isn't there" ! ! ! ! ! It might be winning her over - she will drive it in daylight at the weekend.
Golf 1.9 arriving Monday so can do a direct comparison, and check where the handbrake is. One of SWMBO's comments on the Skoda was "at least you don't keep bumping me when you are driving" so looks like hand brake position is in the Skoda's favour.
Will see what next week brings!
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1.9 TDI Octavia and Golf both just gone back. The Octavia was a little stiff having only done 2k, the Golf was nice and loose having done 8k. I think I can live without the extra performance, and cost, of the 2.0.
Was nice to have the chance to drive them back to back over the same route, literally out of one and into the other.
Overall my preference is the Octavia, big inside, nicely put together and more of the toys I would use than the Golf (even the SE) and the handbrake is in the right place! It is also quieter despite the Skoda being on lower profile tyres than the Golf S. The surprise was that the Skoda felt a better quality car than the Golf, the soft plastic dash feels as if you could sink in, far softer and deeper than the Golf's. Also the more I look at it the more the Golf's styling at the rear does not quite look right - rear pillar too wide and light cluster cut in too far forward. And as our fleet manager says the light cluster itself is a big step backwards from the LED clusters they are putting on other cars in the range.
Looks like a Skoda then, it is not quite in the same league as the Honda but will do the job and at £180 a month cheaper overall than a like for like Honda the retirement fund will benefit - just got to convince SWMBO! No doubt she will have other ideas about the £180!
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What about a Civic? Very roomy inside (deceptively so), looks great (in the right colour), well engineered and well equipped. Worth a look.
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Good luck with it, Ian. As it's a company car (unless it's your own company!) residuals may not be so important: that was the reason I went for the Golf over the Octavia. Personally I think the 2.0 is well worth it over the 1.9: excellent acceleration and the sixth gear makes it relaxed on motorways, which was one of your priorities. But I'm sure you'll be happy with it. When I was looking at Octavias I thought the Elegance trim was worth it but the Laurin & Klement probably wasn't.
Civic - could have been a really good car (although nothing like as roomy as an Octavia estate), but for me at least ruined by the nincompoop who designed the rear end. Awkward little back doors; appalling visibility; no bidet (rear wash-wipe); a silly, unnecessary spoiler; and apparently no heating element in the glass below the spoiler.
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I did look, briefly, at the Civic but there are three issues
- Appalling rearward visibility
- If I sit in the back my head hits the roof before my back hits the seat - OK for tots but ours are 23 and 22. I do carry adults in the back occasionally.
- Boot not big enough for the holiday run to the Cote d'Azur!
I did consider the 2.0 (not ordered yet so may go that way) but it is more noise, tax, lease and possibly fuel and I tend to stick to 65-70 on the motorway at which speed the 1.9 is quiet enough. (My 3 points are for 81mph on a NSL rural dual carriageway (camera van) so I allow plenty of time for journeys - most of the time ).
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Edit too slow.
The 2.0 for the same spec would cost me £50 per month (tax and lease) more than the 1.9. That is £83 that the retirement fund would not see.
When you see £7 per month for metallic paint it makes you think!
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Well the deed is done.
Was going for the Octavia Estate but SWMBO "went quiet" on me. I thought it was over the Skoda but it was actually because it was an estate!
Took her into a Skoda Dealer to look at colours and have gone for a 1.9TDI Elegance Hatch in black magic, beige cloth (who cares it is a lease car), curtain airbags, light assist, MF steering wheel and variable floor (which the lease company said was estate only until we showed then the page on Skoda's web site) - P11 value £16.5k and 130g co2 against a replacement Honda at around £24k and 153g co2.
Big enough for two of us and boot should suffice for 10 days in France, need to work out a power feed for the cold box though. Overall about £20 a month cheaper than the estate and around £200 a month cheaper than a like for like Honda Accord.
105 hp should be adequate and may make sure I don't replace the three points I have when they expire in July. More economical and lower tax. The 2.0 just is not worth it.
Some things I will miss about the Honda;
- Marvelous engine, was running bonnet up on the drive the other night and it was way quieter than the neighbours 2.0 Passat with the bonnet down!
- Electric Tailgate
- Reliability
Some things I will not miss:
- Steaming up on cold mornings unless (and sometimes even if) you have a/c on.
- Cold leather on frosty mornings.
- Dealers, although Skoda may be no better.
Reasons for changing:
- Cost (DB pension scheme closed & may need to support son's mortgage application)
- That stupid sat nav/aircon/radio interface that is now standard (and I had one with it for a week).
- Size - SWMBO doesn't like driving the current Honda.
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Good luck with it Ian. If you're typical of Skoda owners, you'll be happy. Honda Accords are good (well, most of them - sorry, Gordon M) but not £8,000 better than your Octavia, or even £6,500 or so better than the Octavia 2.0 TDI.
I love Audis but I just couldn't justify the extra cost of an A4 Avant over the Golf estate with identical engine and transmission.
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Avant, you're absolutely right, the Accord is a great car, I've been *very* unusually unlucky.
The extra cash is mostly for the extra size, and for 90% of people I would expect the Octavia to be large enough. Sadly I do actually need the size of boot in the Accord as a minimum.
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