Hi - just a quick question (as done a fair bit of research but unsure what to do)
jsut recevied a NIP today 24/10/07 where it states the offence was carried out on the 04/10/07
now i know this is over the 14 days (most probably due to teh post stike) but there is no post frank on the letter so i can't tell when it was posted.
now the other thing i've noticed is that the date at the top of the NIP says 19/10/07 which to me is 15 days after the incident.
the only thing i can come up with is that this is a lease car and they would have had to get the details from the leasing company - although i wasn't driving as the missus was as the time.
i've checked the camera to make sure it's calibrated and it is but is it worth taking the 3points/£60 or have i got something to go back to them with and stand a very good chance of winning?
thanks
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My understanding is that the 14 days relates to the NIP getting to the registered owner, in this case the lease company. For you to have it so promptly at least indicates that you have a pretty efficient lease company admin dept!
Edited by Marlot on 24/10/2007 at 14:29
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Confirming that the NOIP, where the name and address of the driver is not known, has to be sent to the Registered Keeper of the vehicle by Reg/Rec Del/ of First Class post (second class is not acceptable) to arrive in the normal course of the post by the end of the 15th day from the date of the offence (14 days excluding the date of offence).
It would seem that a lease Co is the Reg Keeper so initial NOIP sent to them. They have replied naming you as the user and probable driver so the SCP have now got you in their sights. Once original NOIP has been sent out in time, time limit no longer applies.
Unless you have othe ' loopholes' then it looks as if Conditional Offer is your only option.
Dvd
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mmm thought it'd end up something like that...
many thanks for you help
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Just to confirm, your address is not on the V5? Do you have the V5 in your possession? and your address is not on it as the registered keeper?
I would say that to begin with you *should* be registered as the "registered keeper" because you are the keeper of the vehicle at present. The V5 is not a document of ownership only of who keeps the vehicle.
If you are not the regisered keeper, well IMO you should get that changed because you are probably falling foul of certain laws about registering a vehicle.
If you are the registered keeper. Then the NIP is definately late, you are lucky it was dated 19-10-07 otherwise it would have been more difficult to prove. You write a letter to the ticket office and ask them for it to be dropped as it has not been correctly served.
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No company/lease car I've ever had has me named as the registered keeper - its always been either the company or lease company. Indeed, there is even a special form (the VE103) to allow the driver of a leased car to take it abroad without their name on the V5.
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We have 3 lease cars. On 2 separate BMWs we are listed as registered keeper. On a Ford we are not. Seems to depend on who the lease is through. All are leased through the manufacturer's lease arms (BMW Finance, Ford Business Partner)
Edited by james86 on 24/10/2007 at 19:00
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I've had company vehicles for about 11 years now. Never been a registered keeper and would never have had the V5 either. The fleet is now smaller (more opting out) but it is still very many thousands of cars.
We can all drive each other's cars, colleagues can drive company vehicles on business etc. and it is possible (but not that easy) to swap cars... so if we were registered keepers on a V5 then the number of "previous owners" might rocket. Someone new joins and they get an existing car maybe... but still only one registered keeper.
Then again I think we employ around 22,000 people in Europe now so maybe back to an okay size company again.
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"so if we were registered keepers on a V5 then the number of "previous owners" might rocket. Someone new joins and they get an existing car maybe... but still only one registered keeper."
I would think that not registering the keeper correctly, because that is the effect of what you are saying about lease cars, the keeper and the lease company are both breaking the laws of registering cars. I have no idea, but I'd like to be referred to the laws on the registering vehicles, to see if there is an exemption for company cars/lease vehicles, short term hire cars for a few weeks, yes one can understand there must be some sort of exemption, but a 3yr lease - that's a whole different ball game.
The idea that "previous keepers" has any bearing on value is rediculous, and it's about time people looked at the car not the number of previous keepers when assessing value.
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"a 3yr lease - that's a whole different ball game."
Had my last vehicle for 4 years. Went back on Monday in fact. But had I left before the lease was up it could have been many more employees driving it.
I once had two Audi A4's and then a VW Passat to cover the period when my Golf was stolen and eventually not recovered. Had the Passat for the 13 weeks it took my new car to arrive.
There must be an exemption and this is not a problem. It is assumed I am driving it (or members of the family) so it's not as if we're avoiding anything. Cannot see how my name being on the documents makes any difference - and paperwork can be lost. Leaseplan have hundreds of thousands of cars. Managing change of driver would be a nightmare.
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Horatio - I think that the gov't may have a different view of the registered keeper responsibilities than you or I might expect.
From a recent DfT document ... "This means that the registered keeper of a vehicle has statutory responsibility for licensing it, and retains that responsibility until DVLA has been properly notified of the vehicle's disposal". This would imply that the registered keeper is normally expected to be the person who taxes it. And as my lease cars come as a complete managed service, including the annual tax disk, it has to be the lease company who are the registered keeper.
There are other responsibilities for a registered keeper, but I suspect that the tax one comes top in the gov't eyes!
Another document says "From January 1 2004, it will be the responsibility of a vehicle's registered keeper to ensure that their vehicle is licensed (taxed) at all times unless or until the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) receives confirmation of the vehicle being sold, exported, stolen or scrapped, or a valid Statutory Off-Road Notification (SORN) has been declared. Any vehicle keeper who fails to relicense their vehicle upon the expiry of their current tax disc will be liable to an automatic standard penalty fine." This reinforces that view and means that most lease companies will be very reluctant to give up their registered keeper role.
Edited by Marlot on 24/10/2007 at 22:16
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Good point on taxing lease cars Marlot. Without the lease company being the registered keeper how would I get my tax discs.
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Vehicles Excise & Registration Act 1994
21 Registration of vehicles
(1) The Secretary of State shall, on the first issue by him of a vehicle licence for a vehicle, register the vehicle in such manner as he thinks fit without any further application by the person taking out the licence.
(2) Where particulars in respect of a vehicle are furnished to the Secretary of State in accordance with regulations under section 24 (Covers issue of VRM plate) before he first issues a vehicle licence for the vehicle, he shall so register the vehicle on receiving the particulars.
Road Vehicles (Registration & Licensing) Regs 2002
"registered keeper" in relation to a vehicle means the person for the time being shown in the register as the keeper of that vehicle;
"keeper" in relation to a vehicle means the person by whom that vehicle is kept;
"register" means the record kept by or on behalf of the Secretary of State of the vehicles registered by him, in Great Britain or in Northern Ireland, under section 21 of the 1994 Act;
dvd
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Surely it would be better if "kept" and "keeper" were changed to "owned" and "owner". Then there would be no ambiguity.
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