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Surely the problem with Chinese tyres is that if you have a couple fitted, fairly soon you want to have some more....
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I've been thinking about this Chinese tyre thread.
Even if I thought the Chinese tyres were any good I wouldn't buy them. China is building dirty coal fired power stations as fast as they can, cancelling out anything we in the UK do to stop global warming/climate change. Their human rights history is shocking, such as shooting protesters in Tianamon square.
They only allow people to have one child, so many baby girls are killed at birth.
Boatloads of goods, made in sweatshops, flood our shops, taking away jobs here.
They can shove their tyres, I will buy European thanks.
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If everybody followed your lead, Quizman, inflation would be about 15% per annum. Not to say you're right or wrong.
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"Boatloads of goods"
But that's the problem - can you really avoid buying Chinese? More difficult than you think...
BTW, global warming is almost nothing to do with CO2 or coal, but I realise that's another discussion!
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quizman see my post dated Sun 7 Oct 07 15:11 further up,i think you will be very hard pressed to live the non chinese influence life
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Bell boy, I agree with your earlier post. I was shopping in Makro when I noticed rows of Chinese toys, drills, tools and other shoddy looking stuff. This prompted me to have a go at the Chinese. Do we really need all these goods? Wouldn't it be better for the non workers in this country to make them instead?
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Even if I thought the Chinese tyres were any good I wouldn't buy them.
That has been overwhelmingly obvious throughout the thread. As I said, brand snobbery - you'll buy from one brand over another purely because of their factory's location! I'm not buying into a policital regime every time I put tyres on my car, whether that be a Chinese or European regime. Likewise I'm not buying into a regime every time I buy a TV, computer, or almost any other electronic device - all of which will contain at least 1 Chinese-made component. What a ridiculous argument to put forward.
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"I'm not buying into a political regime every time I put tyres on my car"
Me neither, but I might think twice about buying, say, Burmese tyres. That's assuming I'm not already, as they may well be a source of rubber, which is of course the problem - I'd like to avoid supporting corrupt regimes, but a) I don't know exactly who makes what any more, and b) will I be hurting the right people if I buy elsewhere, assuming that option exists?
If only everything could be suitably labelled...
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Exactly who knows what's made where, when you only have to slice foreign bacon within the UK, and call it BRITISH BACON with a union flag and tractor on the packaging, all legal and above board. Maybe they will import tyre carcasses as raw material and cut the lateral groves and call them MADE IN GREAT BRITAIN?
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Hamsafar, you are right when you say that the union flag can be put on imported food, cut up in the UK. I think this should be stopped.
But I have been assured that if you have the little red tractor on your food it is 100% born and reared in the UK.
The best tractor tyres are Michelin and Kleiber. They last longer, grip better and are more comfortable on the road. The cheapo Russian ones don't last long.
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I dont think its brand snobbery entirely, I think its more to do with making an emotional decision, which is where the marketing presence will be more important. As mentioned above, they feel more 'secure' on branded tyres, even though a good chinese set from a good manufacturer can equal the branded tyres. But they still feel the others are better.
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GregSwain, I don't think I will change your mind as you certainly will not change mine.
I don't think that I am a brand snob. But I do buy good branded products because I think they are better value for money.
I drink London Pride, not because of advertising, because it is wonderful.
I drink Fleurie, Morgon and when I am feeling flush Nuits St Georges, compare these to Piat d' Or!
I put Castol oil in my cars and tractors because I have always been pleased with the results.
We have gone through the tyre business, but you cannot refute the Which tests.
Buy a set of screwdrivers on a market stall and see how long they will last.
I am fairly careful when buying products, I get several quotes, it's surprising how much you can save. One of the reasons I replied to this thread was because the OP's garage had put on these Chinese tyres without a quote. I bet they charged him Michelin prices. If you are going to have cheapos at least pay less.
Quite how you got a set of tyres for £25 each fitted puzzles me, ship them halfway round the world, fit them, balance them, put a new valve on, a bit of profit, bowl of rice for the worker in the sweatshop. it's beyond me.
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Ahhh now we've reached a point where we agree. Buying good products. Yes, I buy good products, but do they have to always have a brand-name on? No.
I drink John Smiths for the same reason. But with oil, I look for specs above brand-names, and I tend to think Castrol is overpriced. Any semi-synth SL-spec oil is good enough for my engine. Tools - I buy mid-range, because I don't use them every day, but I don't want them to fall apart when I use them alongside the gentle persuasion of a hammer either.
As for the OP being charged "Michelin prices", read his post again. He says the tyres were significantly cheaper than premium brands. I bought a pair of Federals 2 years ago for £23 each, and that was retail price. They were good tyres too, far outperforming the Pirellis they replaced. "Good" does not have to mean "branded". That's all I've been saying.
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As for the OP being charged "Michelin prices" read his post again. He says the tyres were significantly cheaper than premium brands.
They were indeed..£29 a corner fitted,as compared to £49 for Michelin Energy. However just like the Michelins they are DOT and E coded, and also A traction & temperature rated. This must count for something!
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This must count for something!
Well you'd think so wouldn't you - some people don't look at the important writing on the sidewalls though. How are you finding them?
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SQ
Absolutely fine thanks. Very quiet and not noticed any change in handling of the vehicle. Even had a chance to try them in the wet the other day..My driving style would certainly never test any tyre to its limit, but they seem perfectly grippy enough for me.
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 12/10/2007 at 22:59
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They can shove their tyres I will buy European thanks.
Have to agree with Greg here. The fact is we now live in a global economy. Its ironic that if you went out and bought the most expensive premium brand European manufactured tyres you could get your hands on, the chances are they would contain rubber or steel sourced from China.
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OK , been watching this post for a while , chen chin tyres are widly used in australia and simular countrys , and loved by taxi firms.
whilst rebuilding one of me "old" bikes ,,,1955 BSA bantam , i found that the ONLY mfg of 2.75 x 19 was chen chin , BUT are branded "maxis" ,,
ok they work , ok and came in at the right price ,,,(no alternatives)
have used em for 3 yrs now ,,,no probs
alan
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a quick google finds me pirellis
not cheap but they are availabubble
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>>As mentioned above, they feel more 'secure' on branded tyres
Now generally I should suggest that feeling more secure is likely to pay dividends in safety terms. Turn up to a job interview in a good suit which makes you feel good about yourself you're more likely to get the job.
But with tyres, shouldn't you run on tyres that make you *feel* UNSAFE (but are not unsafe)? Then you'd be less likely to push the car too far.
The corollary is that if you feel safer on equivalent tyres that are branded rather than Chinese you are MORE likely to have an accident on the branded tyres.
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I disagree MM, I think thet feeling of "security" is purely psychological. Very rarely do I consciously think "my only contact with the road is Korean-branded Chinese-made rubber". People decide they wouldn't want these tyres (without good reason, having never tested them) and come up with every excuse in the book to justify their viewpoint. Let's face it, if I'd just spent £60 on a tyre, £30 of which was for the name, I'd want to justify it somehow.
Long may they continue to be ripped off, so that non-premium tyres are kept at a nice low price for the cost-conscious motorist.
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"ripped off"
There may be an element of that, but Western-made anything has to include labour costs that are at least ten times as much. Manufacturing costs in China and India are dramatically lower than here, for all sorts of reasons, and although we enjoy the benefits at the moment, the long-term effects are worrying and unpredictable.
Not wishing to get political, but I remember when the 'trade gap' (difference between imports and exports) was a regular headline and worry for the chancellor, who had to go cap-in-hand to the IMF for a Big Loan, with red faces all round. Now, apparently, we can borrow as much as we like and it doesn't matter, which is just as well, as we don't make anything anymore anyway! And guess who we owe all the money to..?
Interesting motoring-connected piece on this here: tinyurl.com/2apnba
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Western-made anything has to include labour costs that are at least ten times as much.
If 90% of people started buying Chinese-made budget tyres, the prices would sneak up, and the price of the European tyres would come down (OK, not quite to the same level because of production costs). Supply and demand.
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"If 90% of people started buying Chinese-made budget tyres, the prices would sneak up"
Only if they're short on capacity, which seems unlikely. What about economies of scale?
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Only if they're short on capacity which seems unlikely.
If demand rises and supply remains constant, the price will rise. As for economies of scale - if everyone's queueing up for Cheng Shans, the retail price won't fall just because the importers are bringing more into the country and paying less per unit.
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"If demand rises and supply remains constant"
A big if! The Chinese have got where they are by meeting demand pretty well everywhere - it's something they're very good at. I'm not sure the normal laws of S&D apply much at the moment anyway, because the labour cost issue is so dominant. I don't see prices falling where demand slips, either, e.g. for US-made vehicles. If competition is too stiff, producers just fold.
Also, you can be sure that the importers are making a healthy margin. The factory-gate price of most Chinese goods is shockingly low.
Edited by J Bonington Jagworth on 12/10/2007 at 13:16
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A big if!
Well not entirely - every supply chain has a weak link. It takes weeks to ship a container from China - if the increase in demand has not been forecast at least a month beforehand, the factory can churn out as many tyres as it wants but it won't help the UK importer keep meeting immediate demand. As you say though, the labour costs are what's keeping China on top of the game at the moment, and supply seems almost infinite.
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>> Only if they're short on capacity which seems unlikely. If demand rises and supply remains constant the price will rise.
Only if there is insufficient capacity in China for creating more tyres, which as stated above seems very unlikely.
As for economies of scale - if everyone's queueing up for Cheng Shans the retail price won't fall just because the importers are bringing more into the country and paying less per unit.
Yes it will. Because otherwise somebody will start importing Shen Changs which will be priced lower as they will be a newer product so Cheng Shans will have to reduce their price too.
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Yes it will. Because otherwise somebody will start importing Shen Changs....
But that alters the situation further by introducing a competitor. Obviously Mr Importer wants to stay competitive, but until the "Shen Changs" hit British shores he doesn't have to reduce his prices by a penny, regardless of how much he's paying Mr Cheng Shan.
Or, in the true spirit of free enterprise(!!), Mr Importer could meet his competitor for lunch, and arrange to fix their prices ;-)
Only in the BR could a thread change from "Should I keep my chinese tyres?" to "Business for beginners - chapter 1: importing tyres"
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Greg, think you have completely missed my point, :)
I want them to feel psychologically UNSAFE on the grounds that they will be less likely to push their car beyond its limits.
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In the interests of this forum I have driven my Interstate Touring IST shod Passat estate that bit harder.
I can say that even on damp twisty roads nothing more than safe mild understeer was noted. In dry conditions the grip exceeded my skills. I am content with them.
Now to try that emergency stop on wet motorway from 85mph......
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Greg, think you have completely missed my point, :)
Oops, you appear to be right. I agree that some drivers have a lot of misplaced confidence, but I fear the only effect of putting cheap "less secure" tyres on their car would be giving them something else to blame when their over-confidence spins them off the road.
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> But with tyres shouldn't you run on tyres that make you *feel* UNSAFE (but are
> not unsafe)? Then you'd be less likely to push the car too far.
>
> The corollary is that if you feel safer on equivalent tyres that are branded rather
> than Chinese you are MORE likely to have an accident on the branded tyres.
I agree with that. Currently running on Michelin Energy 3a's, and they really dont inspire much confidence as soon as the ground becomes even the slightest bit damp. I know that if I push them a bit too much in comparison to other tyres I've had, I've had it! But I rather have some tyres with a bit more grip in a wet situation rather than go into ultra-safe driving mode and still have to pray that the rubber is gonna grip when I do need to push. Hence they're coming off later this month.
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Hence they're coming off later this month.
Here's an idea smokescreen. Put some Cheng Shans on it, and then we'll have the answer to this thread! ;-)
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Provide me some evidence they'll grip well in the wet and I may do so... until then, Hankooks or a certain set of Kumho's for me.
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. Their human rights history isshocking
Continental made tyres for the nazis in WW2. Should we avoid those too?
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>>>Continental made tyres for the nazis in WW2. Should we avoid those too?
Yes of course. Also we must avoid the people's car(sadly I have got one) Mercs, they made plane engines, Bosch, Krupps and all sorts of German sounding names.
The Japanesse were very unpleasant to my uncle and quite a few others, so that's the end of Kawasaki sounding companies.
To be serious, in China the human rights excesses are going on now. I would rather buy my goods made by workers who are not exploited too much.
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And those Vikings weren't very nice either...
I agree about the workers, although it's ironic that there are queues of job applicants at the gates of many Asian factories, as it still represents a step up from subsistence agriculture. Not defending it, but it's a complex subject, and you can't blame them for wanting to earn enough to buy some of what they themselves are making!
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If everything Chinese is all of a sudden so good, i presume you will all be trading in your overpriced European rubbish and buy Chinese cars.
At the very least they will have fantastic Chinese tyres which is just as well because the crash test footage for cars from there don't look too good. So the incredible grip from the tyres will be handy to keep you out of trouble.
Bet i'm going to wish i hadn't said that.
ttfn
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Perhaps they could offer a budget option on tyres at future F1 Gp's. Would love to see Mclarens running on "Linglong" slicks..lol
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"Bet i'm going to wish i hadn't said that."
Probably. Remember when Japanese bikes and cars were ridiculed by Brits who 'knew' that their machines were superior? When you consider that these included agricultural implements like the Panther 250 or Austin Maxi, you have to wonder at our arrogance...
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And on the subject of bikes and tyres, take a look at an 80's bike mag. Bridgestone tyres used to be utterly ridiculed. Dunlop (or Japlop, as they were so wittily named) tyres from Japan used to be ridiculed...
There still seems to be a belief that Western goods must, for some unstated reason, always be better that eastern goods, at least on a technical level. Read some of the used bike press and you'll fined that they still think old British iron is better than new Japanese.
Keep up that mindset and it leads to the poorhouse. Compete or die.
V
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"they still think old British iron is better than new Japanese"
I suppose it is if you enjoy roadside maintenance! What the Japanese understood and we appeared not to, was that however glamorous the image, most people paying their own money want reliability (and freedom from oil leaks) first. The Beetle sold on this for years, despite regular slating in the press, muttering rotters rarely having to part with their own cash for such things.
That's not to say that we didn't do a good job sometimes, but we're a bit slow to recognise progress elsewhere. I've hardly laid a spanner on my Suzuki (bike) in three years, although it does have Avon tyres on it. I wonder where they're made..?
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Remember when Japanese bikes and cars were ridiculed by Brits who 'knew' that their machines were superior?
Is there any comparison between the wonderfully British K-series, and the Mitsubishi-based units used by Hyundai/Kia which are obviously inferior because they come from somewhere where they eat dogs? Thought not, give me the Kia unit any day.
A lot of posters in the BR are still living in 1960 I'm afraid. Meanwhile, back in 2007, give it 10 years, and Kia will be just as well-accepted as Honda. Car-makers will be opening Chinese factories, and selling cars made in them to the UK market. 90% of tyres will be made in China, even if they're marketed through their European "heritage". Even Victor Meldrew can't stop it from happening ;-)
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Whilst I agree that there is a perception that Western products are better than anything from the Far East, the only thoughts I can add is from experience of Japanese tyres on bog standard bikes I owned in the 70s and 80s, they could be dreadful for instance aKawasaki GT750 on Japanese Bridgestone (frightening) I threw these away after a couple of months and replaced them with a set of Metzlers and it transformed the bike. I accept that there was a change and that Japanese rubber easily compared with the best that Europe had to offer....
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