Hi
Is anyone here a wiz on bio fuel? I have a customer with a Jeep Cherokee 2.8 diesel. Jeep says it?s only allowed to run on 5% bio fuel so really that means it can?t use it. Anyway this customer has been using it anyway and had no running problems with it until it started making a noise then broke down. So I had a look a found it wouldn't start due to low fuel pressure traced the fault to injector not holding fuel and leaking it all into the cylinder. Replace the injector and it started no problem but was still noisy so turn it off and check the oil found it was all sludge tried to drain the oil but no oil came out it was all just sludge. Suspected this was just because the injector had been leaking and contaminated the oil by going past the rings. Removed engine and found damage to crankshaft and camshaft due to loss of oil pressure and as the car was under warranty replace the complete engine for him. He went away very happy however 9 months down the road it has now done the same thing again. Warranty has told him where to go as he has been running it on bio fuel but I don?t know much about bio fuel and can?t see how or why it should do this to the oil and wreck his engine? Think he is now going to learn a hard lessen and not run it on bio fuel being it?s now going to cost him a new engine but I would like to know more if any of you are a wiz on this fuel or know of a web site as jeep technical don?t want to know or tell me why or give me any info at all.
This maybe a good point to all of you that are running on bio fuel or are thinking about using it to check if you can first.
P.S i didn't know when I change the engine about the fuel this has only come to light this time around.
Regards,
Merlin.
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I`m just waiting for someone to pop up and give you a spirited defence of `Biodiesel` :)
Theres a link which explains a bit about FAME
www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/archive/2004/tuksb/an...1
Question is why dont people just follow the instruction book.....
The defence of Biodiesel ( on the web) is IMHO not usually about FAME, which is manufactured to a standard, but to one of the back street or farm outfits manfacturing outside legistlation re fuel spec.
Being a cynic, I often suspect a finacial interest :)
Regards
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Sorry, Just to add for clarity. I have only seen FAME with the coloured hoses on sale in France, but there are clear warnings regarding the Spec on the pump and the hoses to avoid a misfuelling error resulting in FAME being put into engines designed for less than 5%.
Having said that, if unleaded can frequently be put into Diesel cars...What hope is there?
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I'm not in a position to answer the main question, but, one thing I would be very concerned about would be that the biodiesel may have attacked the rubber pipes and seals used in the fuel system, and particles of rotten rubber will still be making their way towards the pump and injectors even if the owner has now started to use proper diesel. i.e., it may be best to renew all the rubber parts to prevent a repeat performance!
Among the steps taken by those who wish to run on biodiesel is to change out rubber and nitrile rubber for viton whereever possible.
What did the fuel filter look like?
Number_Cruncher
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Whenever I see anything about running a car on 100% biodiesel, old chip fat or whatever it's always a very old mechanical pump system diesel. 5th Gear had a 190 Merc, Mr Strawbridge uses an old Landie and Pug 405s are common examples. With these cars if it fails you throw them away, to risk thousands of pounds of engine damage to save on fuel costs seems foolish.
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I dont know much about it, apart from what NC says, biodiesel can attack natural rubber seals so you need to replace with synthetic rubber. I have heard of incompatibility with piezo injectors and also with certain fuel pumps, but I don't know enough about it to be able to comment.
Have a look at this forum, a lot of it is about using vegetable oil, but has discussion on biodiesel too:
www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/index.php
HTH.
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I take it that there is a common rail fuel system in this engine? Even with biodiesel produced to EN14214, some injectors can't cope with the slightly higher average viscosity due to the incredibly high pressures at which they operate. The spray pattern will be wrong as well. He probably could have gotten away with using 20-30% biodiesel at most, but using "B100" in a modern CR engine is not advisable.
Perishing of rubber shouldn't be an issue though, as ULSD has the same effect on natural rubber as biodiesel, which is why synthetic rubber has been used since ULSD was introduced in the early nineties. To be honest, if the guy has been using 100% bio after it clearly caused a problem for his engine, he's a plonker and only has himself to blame. I say this as someone who's been using biodiesel for years!
--
andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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Hi
thanks all it is a common rail and has peso injectors.
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Hi, thanks Rich reading some of the posts there I have found polymerised oil and is the sludge that I have so I now know that the bio fuel was the fault.
Thanks again.
Regards,
Merlin.
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I had a look and found this.
Cut& paste
"The Veggy builds up in the engine lube-oil....
There comes a 'Critical Mass' point, (although before this, it can thicken to some extent but without careful testing the amount of contamination cannot really be assessed),- where the Mineral Lube-oil and the Veggy oil are in the right proportions with the normal engine heat and other forces to react to form a polymer, and on that fateful day the engine cools after the 'Critical-Mass' has been reached where the lube-oil will set solid, just like jelly!
-Seen it happen, Very strange stuff is evolved...Same consistancy as Dessert Jelly, with the wobble and shake to boot, but greenish black opaque and covered in a clear yellow thin oily fluid. It has a slight but weird almost linseed/white spirit type smell too....
Next engine start, youll not have any oil pressure, and if not noticed, engine destruction will occur within minutes....."
end&cut&paste
Ref,
www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?...3
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If he has been using pump bio diesel thats what it is 95%normal diesel and 5% oil seed rape as recommended, if he has been using his own concoction then they have a right to dismiss the warranty claim
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Polymerisation of the oil in the sump is referred to as an issue in the FIE (injector manufacturers) report here: journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/FIEM.pdf The stability of some fuels with ageing etc is also a factor. I don't know whether this is up to date?
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There still seems to be confusion between biodiesel, veg oil and RME.
Sounds like the Jeep was run on a high amount of raw veg oil, as the symptoms described ocurr with veg oil and insufficient oil changes (9,000 miles is waaaaay to long!).
Veg oil is also available from different plants and in different grade, food grade, used etc... also, fat used in catering tends to be very heavily processed and gums are removed, whereas other types will polymerise into sticky residue (Sunflower oil is one of the worst for this)
Some call veg oil a biodiesel because it is bio and a works on the diesel principle, wheras advocates of biodiesel tend to say it is not and prefer to call it SVO.
The pump diesel with 5% RME, is not biodiesel with 5% vegetable oil, it is 95% mineral diesel with 5% RME. There is a big difference, and until people can get a grasp, cars will continue to break.
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