Don't laugh but was listening to Jimmy Young on the radio today. I know I know, not normal radio fodder it just happened to be on, honest john.
Anyway he will be having Steven Byers on in the future, date to be rearranged and JY is asking for questions on transport to put to Byers.
It seemed to me that this forum could probably come up with quite a few pertinent ones. Not sure how it could be co-ordinated but I reckon its worth a go. I'll do it if no-one else is better able.
How about us collectively preparing a list of three absolute humdinger questions, edited down to sound bite proportions rather than three page rants. Then we could ALL submit these to the beeb.
I open the bidding with.
Repeatedly legislation is proposed on road traffic laws or vehicle construction regulations to solve problems which could be removed by drivers and other road users applying simple common sense. What does the Government propose to do to educate road users of all kinds, and would they be prepared to make such training complusory?
Not sure its a humdinger or a sound bite I know, sorry boys/girls, edit away and add your own please.
And *please* be gentle with me about the Jimmy Young bit.
Cheers all,
Stuart
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thats a good starter for ten Stuart. Hopefully compulsory. Shame about Jimmy Young but we all have our secret vices.
rgds Phil I
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This is a very good question. I say submit it. Most drivers are not taught how to DRIVE, but simply how to pass a very simple test of how well they can operate a piece of machinery within a very narrow set of simple manouvres. As for "hazard perception" - doesn't even enter the equation!! Even the theory test doesn't really cut it, since by statistical "theory" one should get at least 25% by simply guessing the answers from the multiple choices given.
Driving should be taught at school. Drivers on L plates should not be allowed to drive on the roads untill they have completed a certain number of hours of tuition at some kind of special centre.
Trouble is this costs money, whereas fining drivers for driving badly (or too fast) generates income. nuff said??
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WRT theory test, my eldest son just passed his, fluffing one question, but they wouldn't tell him which one it was!
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How can you improve if you do not know where you went wrong?
Puzzled,
John R
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Try the online "mock" theory test on the driving standards agency web site at www.driving-tests.co.uk.
I'm ashamed to say I got one wrong! I claim they've changed the rules since I started driving 35 years ago and anyway the question was badly phrased!
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At least you are not a TOG
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How about "why do we not adopt the widespread system of "P" plates and restricted power for first year drivers?"
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This is a good idea and used to good effect elsewhere. But, it still does not address the question of driver education ie TEACHING someone how to DRIVE. It would be a good measure, but not on its own.
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Don't hold your breath while you wait for this programme. Byers was actually sopposed to appear with JY two weeks ago, and cancelled at the last moment. His promise to appear in the near future should be taken with a pinch of salt, as he was probably tipped off that the questions he would have to field from listeners would be somewhat tougher than New Labour MP's are used to getting from Richard and Judy's toadying platitudes.
As for Cyclone Cid's suggestion that the "simple test" that learners take now should be toughned up, give us a break, it's hard enough to get pupils through this one, which is so much more searching than anything existing drivers had to take. As for the theory test, I would bet serious money that less than five per cent of experienced drivers would come anywhere near to passing it. Try finding a mock test paper and having a go yourself if you doubt me.
Agree on driving being taught as a school subject though, I've been advocating that for years.
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You're second paragraph illustrates my original point with shocking clarity!
"it's hard enough to get pupils through this one" shows that pupils are taught to pass the test, not taught to drive (usually with the minimum amount of lessons that can be got away with, no??)
"less than five per cent of experienced drivers would come anywhere near to passing it" surely illustrates the woeful lack of driver education that exists.
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Cyd, if it is posible to teach somone to pass a test without teaching them to drive, I don't know how. In fairness, years go it was, but not anymore. The modern test is comprehensive enough to trip up anyone who cannot demonstrate a good grasp of hazard awarness and road sense. Examiners are far less forgiving than I have ever known them to be, and candidates are now failing for errors that would have been considered minor a few years ago. If you or anyone doubts me, then there is nothing to stop you booking yourself a driving test - you do not have to be a learner and a fail will not result in losing your licence. Stirling Moss took a standard learner drivers test a Hornchurch a few years ago, and failed. Even if you pass, your eyes will be opened by the examiners debrief at the end of the test.
The accident rate among young male drivers is disproportionately high - this is not the result of lack of skill, but more a case of bravado and showing off behind the wheel. This is a seperate problem to anything regarding improved training and testing. It has long been my belief that teenage drivers should not be allowed to carry passengers unless the person in front with them is over 25 and a full licence holder, for it is when carrying passengers from their peer group that young males are most prone to risk taking, in order to impress and not lose face.
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young men are wired up to take risks and nothing much will change that, in the same way that women have poor spacial awareness compared to men (sorry but its a medical fact), and so both groups tend to have associated problems as road users... everyone has strengths and weaknesses depending on age/sex/fitness etc
old folks tend to loose their eyesight, and coordination, and even small percentage loses here can have dramatic effects on their ability as road users...
however experience and knowledge are the best defence
i have sympathy with the problems young men suffer, they will routinely be hammered for a minor road error by traffic plod that would have given a warning to some old fogey doing the same...
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teaching pedestrian/cycling/railway safety in schools would be a start
good old highway code quizes etc
you may be surprized but mostly none of these essentials are taught in most schools
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Good point Tom, about a difficult test, but that is my point too.
Would we be all so smug, where the last searching (or not) driving examination was taken 10/20/30/40/never years ago if we knew that in a finite period of time we would be subjected to a compulsory written and practical test. Such test which had the power if we repeatedly performed that badly to take us off the road, increase our insurance premiums, make the vehicle be depowered, I don't know what is possible or politically acceptable but I'm sure you get my drift.
So it would not stop the real cowboys who take the p, are not taxed tested insured etc, but it might reduce the proportion of half asleep morons who don't use one tenth of the brain cells they were born with. Therefore also increasing the % of people who actually think about what they are doing and try to get better on a continual improvement basis.
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Good point, Stuart.
Personally, I'm a TOG and not ashamed of it!
It would be good to hear Bozo put on the spot but don't count on it. He is the original disappearing man, remember. Where was he AFTER the Railtrack announcement was made, when one would have expected him to be around to justify decisions taken?
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>>Try finding a mock test paper and having a go yourself if you doubt me.
Tom,
I don`t suppose you've got one you could fax me ? Or e-mail would be even better ?
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I'll email an attachment tomorrow evening, Mark.
No cheating now, put that Highway Code away! -:)
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Mark
I tried the questions a couple of years back when my daugher was learning. Don't want to boast, but I'd have passed. I reckon anyne who takes motoring seriously should be OK.
The ones that catch the youngsters out are the ones not specifically in the Highway Code, but which experienced drivers have learned about!
Regards
John
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I`ll try it honestly, and let you know how I got on.
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Tom,
I wonder if there is somewhere you could put it so we all can have a go, assuming no copyright problems.
Why should Mark be the only one to cry "I scored 100%, no sweat".
;-)
David
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See my response to John R above
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You're really serious aren't you?
Try this link
www.carnetlive.co.uk/trivia/
and select driving test, you can choose 1 of 6
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Tom,
if you could put it on the site as a pdf doc. would be appreciated.
Phil mI
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I reckon everyone should have to take a DAS bike test before they're allowed in a car.
I feel as though I was driving half asleep before I got my Cat A. Now I'm straining my eyes into the distance to look for hazards *long* before I get to them.
I feel the bike test is significantly better preperation than the car test...
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Better still. why don't we submit our answers to Tom for marking, and have a HJ Backroom Hall of Shame oops I mean Fame of course.
Come on fellas this is not getting us more questions to put to the Minister, should he not wimp out.
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FIF
Blyers will, of course, come with a "solution oriented" approach - not an open mind. He will read off the spin-spiel from the Bliar crib sheet, and will only answer those questions where he can make his point without looking exposed.
In my experience it's no good framing questions to these sorts of people such that you hand the agenda over to them. The questions need to be simple, short, direct and closed. We should decide, very succinclty,what it is that we want him to answer, and put the question so that the answer must be yes or no.
...and then watch him avoid it!
Ian
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I saw an interview ages ago on TV that went a bit like this...
TV chap after a few dodges and dives,
"Please, can you answer a simple question with a simple YES or a NO?"
Polititian (could have been any of them),
"To answer a question in that manner would be too simplistic and not allow me to explain the full realities of my responce.... "
(or similar)
John R
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I agree Ian. He can't be made to answer a Q. He'll just th esubject burning interview time. Even Paxman doesn't get people to answer the Q's.
A more practical and sensible solution would be assassination. ;-)
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IanFlat in Fifth wrote:
>
> Anyway he will be having Steven Byers on in the future, date
> to be rearranged and JY is asking for questions on transport
> to put to Byers.
>
I've just thought of something. Depending on the timing of the interview, Blyers probably won't be there. He'll have been moved in the cabinet re-shuffle. I wonder what incompetent person they'll appoint next.
Ian
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In Spain, the "MoT" pass produces a distinctive yellow, Certificate of Examination, which is affixed prominently at top of windscreen..so there's no way to cheat the system. Good idea surely, Mr Byers? After all, you could do with some brownie points...
Andrew
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Just found you can do the theory test online on the DVLA website.
Sample ones for car drivers, bikes, hgvs, buses.
Plus it tells you the ones you got wrong and the correct answer.
I passed both car driver tests, modesty prevents me from telling you the scores. Embarrassment prevents telling which two questions I got wrong, oops gave it away there.
As I've said before day I stop learning is the day I give up. I'll go back and have a go at the bus tests later.
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I'll point my daughter in the direction of that one.
She starts training as a bus driver next week.
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beat me to it terry so the average backroom score so far is 34 from 35.
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Nice idea FiF.
I'm tempted to add my own one but there's plenty of material there already.
Isn't it now time for Martyn or HJ to select the 3 from those which have come in and send it off to JY with a brief explanation (given that JY probably hasn't heard of HJ).
Even if nothing comes of it, it will have acquainted JY with the sterling worth of this forum and he may come back to us in the future as a more reliable barometer of this interest group than the AA or RAC.
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When I was a wee lad of about 7 (or maybe 10) in the late 1960s/early 70s I took my Cycling Proficiency Test at school. I remember we learned all about road safety and how to ride a bike in traffic. Got a lovely triangular badge and certificate (still have the badge somewhere). Does the Cycling Proficiency Test still exist? If not, it should.
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Sorry to let the side down but i scored a miserable 30/35.
Should I give my licence back?
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I just got 35 in the mock theory.
www.driving-tests.co.uk/mockpaper/theoryintro.htm
It wasn't hard and there were no trick questions.
In all seriousness I think anyone who doesn't after considering each answer carefully *should* tear their license up!
Let's see how the 'holier than thou brigade' get on!
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From the Northampton "Chronicle & Echo", 22 April 2002
NUMBER OF DEATHS ON THE ROADS HAS DOUBLED
"Police say rise is not an indication that speed camera policy is
failing."
By Angela Pownall, Chronicle Reporter
The number of people killed in accidents on Northamptonshire's roads
since the start of the year has doubled compared with last year.
Seventeen people have died in road accidents since January, a 112 per
cent increase on the first three months of 2001. The rise in the
county's death toll comes despite more speed cameras being installed.
Naomi Cooper, a spokeswoman for Northamptonshire police, said: "last
year was a particularly low year, but unfortunately the figure is
higher this year than 2001 or 2000. Road deaths is [sic] one area that
is hard to influence. It is better to look at the bigger picture. We
are substantially down on figures of people killed and seriously
injured year on year.
"With fatalities we tend to get peaks and troughs. This rise is not an
indication that speed cameras are failing. A safety camera is not
going to prevent one of these road deaths from occurring. All sorts of
factors have to be looked at."
To date this year 17 people have died in 13 separate collisions on
Northamptonshire's roads. For the same period last year, there were
eight fatalities in eight separate accidents. In 2000, 15 people died
in the first quarter of the year in 13 accidents. At the beginning of
last month, a woman died in a road accident on the A508 in Roade just
yards from a safety camera but it is not known whether speed was a
factor in the tragedy.
Criticisms of speed cameras have included motorists slowing down only
to speed up again after they have passed out of the camera's range.
Mrs Cooper said: "We have heard this argument before, but we are doing
all we can as part of the countywide casualty reduction scheme of
which cameras are a small part. We know people slow down past cameras
then speed up again and we would appeal to them to stick to the speed
limit whether there are cameras on the road or not."
Copyright of Northampton Chronicle & Echo acknowledged
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If that is "not an indication that speed camera policy is failing", what would be an indication that speed camera policy is succeeding?
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>>www.driving-tests.co.uk/mockpaper/theoryintro.htm
I did the same one as Dave. But I only got 33/35.
The two wrong were....
>>You have broken down on a two-way road. You have a warning triangle. You should place the warning triangle at least how far from your vehicle?
I said 25 metres, it should have been 45 metres. (I can live with this one, I didn't know the answer, but I'd probably put my triangle in more or less the right place in the event of needing it.
>>Your indicators may be difficult to see in bright sunlight. What should you do?
Oh the shame !!! I said indicate earlier and it said use arm signals. Annoying because I probably would do the right thing in reality, but I didn't answer that way.
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Much to my surprise I got 35/35, but I'd already read Mark (Brazil)'s comment about the warning triangle, and I'd have probably guessed a shorter distance too.
I thought a lot of the answers were obvious/common sense/common courtesy rather than any deep rooted knowledge of the Highway Code.
Will have to see how Him Indoors does with this....
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"I did the same one as Dave. But I only got 33/35."
Bloody foreign drivers... Prolly doesn't leave home without 4 bottles of local Rioja down him. mumble, mumble, mumble...
"The two wrong were...."
We must have done different ones! I didn't get any 'distance' related questions. Stopping distances would have floored me!
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Byers is MP for North Tyneside.
Question -
'When was the last time you drove your own car from London to North Tyneside and back in a weekend?'
Did you bear the fuel/insurance/depreciation costs?
Do you know how much it cost?
How long did it take?
Were there any holdups? Why?
What improvements would you like to see?
How are you going to achieve them?
When?
What was the standard of driving you encountered like?
And similar Q's for rail -
When did you last travel standard class?
When did you last have to stand?
How long were the delays? etc etc...
Your man lives in a world of expenses paid 1st class tickets and chauffeurs.
And he's clever, glib, and slick with any open questions.
IMHO best you can hope to achieve is to illustrate that as transport minister his interest/knowledge of the life of the average Joe is the square root of @!#$ all. His main interest is political survival currently, and preferment eventually.
But, for all I know, he may be a very good constituency MP.
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he has not got a driving licence, so any questions about "when did you last drive" are pretty pointless
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Absolutely pointless, I agree. I didn't know.
As a matter of interest, where did you learn that?
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Yes Mark that warning triangle one was the one I got wrong, I said 100metres.
Just passed the bus test only 32/35 I'm afraid.
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Passed car test 2, 100% but only with up to date knowledge. The main beam warning light on a Minor is nothing like the one shown in the test!
In car test 1 I had a couple of erors - Snow chains I said prevent wheel locking when you brake, and they reckon 'stop skidding in deep snow'. Open to question that I reckon! Plus, I got the wrong sign for start of a one-way street.
Ho hum
Regards
john
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Bloody foreign drivers... Prolly doesn't leave home without 4 bottles of local Rioja down him. mumble, mumble, mumble...
Hey, I wouldn't be driving in the first place if I was sober enough to walk home.
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Well done class, you have exceeded my expectations on your theory test performance. Will anyone own up if they failed?
Seriously though, everyone who visits this site is a confirmed petrol head with a well above average knowledge of everything car related. Random tests conducted by the AA from time to time where they ask members of the public ten simple Highway Code questions show an average correct answer rate of three!
To get back to FiF's original question, how about asking Steven Byers how come he doesn't drive? Bit of an essential skill for someone with his job, I should think.
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"Will anyone own up if they failed?"
Actually Tom I reckon I was on course to fail the HGV test due to a number of guessed answers, but the internet connection crashed at question 24. Thats my excuse and I'm sticking to it. (Don't have a HGV licence by the way, just did the test out of academic interest)
I'll have a go at the bike and HGV test 2 tonight on a more reliable connection and report back, pass or fail.
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I just did the other car one. This time 34/35.
However;
How am I supposed to know whether it is a Pelican, Puffin, Toucan or a god-damn Pink-Striped Vulture ? And what bloody difference does it make what its called ? And does it actually have its name on it ?
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Pelican for pedestrians, amber light flashes. Toucan for Ped's and cyclists steady amber light. Pink Striped Vulture, not this side of Brazil.
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Mark
Only Vulture I've seen round here was a refuse collection vehicle with that name - no pink stripes though.
Er, must admit got that one right by chance. Eliminated two answers, complete bloody guess between the others.
regards
John
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"he has not got a driving licence, so any questions about "when did you last drive" are pretty pointless"
Or much more relevant?
Byers joyriding. That would be worth it!
Seriously though, if we encourage cabinet ministers to drive Blunket might start. He'd be worse than my ex ****** ***** [1].
[1] Name ommited to protect the guilty!
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Lack of a driving licence seems to be a pre-rquisitefor appointment as Minister for Transport.
Remember Barbara Castle?
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As I thought you'd all be curious to know how one of the lunatic speeder anti toll tax scamera desperados would fare I had a bash at the tests.
You'll all no doubt pleased to hear that, after trying very, very hard, I beat all your figures, and dropped four points.
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Back to the original topic:
How about:
"Why do you plan to "Predict and Provide" facilities for air travel but refuse to do the same for road transport"?"
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And why are they predicting and providing air transport facilities in the London area when the roads and railways can't cope with the current ground transfers?
PS I've finally clocked up enough points to fail, but I forgot to keep score of how many tests I took!;-)
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I'd just like to ask him when he plans to learn to drive...
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Oh how I hate to defend one of the so-called Labour Party but Byers is Minister for Transport, not Roads (a more junior ministerial post). You may as well ask him if he has an Airline Pilots licence or can he drive a train or captain a North Sea ferry.
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Robin, this issue of should transport ministers be able to drive was discussed previously before the thread in question degenerated into yet another speed camera rant.
"I would say most of the public use planes and trains as paying passengers but not as pilots or drivers. Therefore for the minister to be in touch with the voting public he should use these without the VIP facilities.
A significant proportion, maybe someone could advise of the %, hold licences and drive regularly. I submit that by being unable and clearly unwilling to drive a minister without a licence cannot be in touch with a significant part, possibly even a majority, of the electorate."
Anyway unless anyone has any further questions to add to the pile, I'll consolidate things and come up with a candidate list in a separate thread later tonight. Thanks for all the input
TTFN
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> Oh how I hate to defend one of the so-called Labour Party but Byers is Minister for Transport, not Roads (a more junior ministerial post).
Excellent point, leading to excellent question:
Why, when most freight and passenger transport (in the 80%'s) is by road, and motoring taxes greatly outweigh motoring investment, and even motoring investment and (privately owned, largely untaxed) public transport subsidy together, is Roads a junior ministerial post and "Transport" a whole ministry largely devoted to bus, rail, tram and aircraft?
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Thanks Bogush, I'll add that to the list.
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>I'll consolidate things and come up with a candidate list in a separate thread later tonight
FIF - There may well be a case for *not* promulgating full details of your list in advance, in order to avoid some "ministry mole" preparing matching replies which make it all too easy for Mr Byers - if and when he appears on the JY programme. Suggest you place your own judgement on the input to date, or use e-mail to consult those who were happy to provide an address.
Good question from Bogush, assuming of course that his point is factually correct.
DD
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Double Decker,
It's a fair point you make. I'll think about that one.
I had rather assumed that the way New Labour operates is they would not put someone up without a look at the questions first so he can be briefed properly.
I'd also wondered if that was the reason he failed to show last time as he found he wasn't going to get an easy ride as with Richard and Judy, whoever they are?
Cheers,
Stuart
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Why doesn't HJ devote one edition of his excellent column to a seres of open questions to Mr. B?
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FIF - My thoughts exactly, on both the points you make, since I too feared, as I prepared my earlier post, that it would indeed be too much to hope that a fearless Cabinet minister would be prepared to accept questions without prior notice - from the people who pay his rent!
FWIW, Cherie likes Mr Byers, apparently. Not sure why ... maybe that could be another question!
Regards, and more power to your elbow with your initiative.
DD
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"that it would indeed be too much to hope that a fearless Cabinet minister would be prepared to accept questions without prior notice - from the people who pay his rent! "
You want him to only answer questions from Geoffrey Robinson? ;-)
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Dave
Well spotted, you big cynical taxpayer you! If there's one thing this forum has taught me, it's to *try* to avoid ambiguity .....
DD
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Thought about this private circulation of the questions, plus the issue of giving the civil servants a preview.
(Tomo I've given you a good straight line there for your excellent gag about, not civil nor servants)
Seeing as we are hardly likely to get the questions asked and he's gonna duck out, (WUSS) we might as well do it on here so it gets some airing at least.
Then looking at how many people have had an input, some with declared email addresses and some not, its too much of a pain not to post it and considering virus situation I don't want to risk it, no offence boys and girls. So I'm off to do a bit more honing over a nice bottle of red and will post a new thread in the morning.
Basically the thing splits down into three sections, Govt policy, is he out of touch, and education. Its the latter thats giving the problems refining it down.
Hope thats OK.
As George Dixon would say "Evening all"
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.... because you are a good fellow, with a serious issue in mind.
On balance, I'm sure you are absolutely right to go for open consideration of the potential questions, not least because of the virus threat, coupled with the facts that you will almost certainly elicit very worthwhile additional input, and that Mr Byers's bag carrier will have a very elaborate crib-sheet at the ready, whether questions are submitted in advance or live.
DD
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Mr Byers. Is there no beginning to your talent?
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