Hi
Apologies in advance for long winded post. Hope someone out there can offer some help and advice.
Some five weeks ago I purchased, on credit, a 6 year old peougeot 206. I drove the car home and parked up for the night. I got into the car the following day and it failed to start up. The neighbours and other half tried to jump start for some time but this proved worthless. I rang the dealer who came out on Monday afternoon, got into the car turned the key, and it started it up straight away!! You can imagine how stupid we felt. I drove the car to work the next day ...fine. When I had finished my shift I got into the car and the same thing happened, car would not work. Informed the dealer who came to my work place and tried to start it, which did not happen. He jump started it, promised to take it away and look at it. His colleague drove it off. I rang them the next day and he was adamant I had just left the lights on drained the battery and that there was nothing wrong with the car. This is crap!!
Anyway get car back and same thing happens again. He takes it away...yet again..and I collect it from the dealership on the Saturday morning, with nearly 90 miles more on the clock and an empty petrol tank may I add. I have written to them expressing my concerns and quoting my rights under the sales of goods act etc and also sent the same letter to the finance company. Anyway this has happened twice since, yesterday being the last time in my opinion as I have lost all faith in this car and have just had enough.
I rang the dealer offering him a final opportunity to put right any faults and he has said "out of 1 month warranty not my problem so prove I have sold you a car not of satisfactory quality". Quoting what I have read on he I told hi the onus was on him to prove he hasn't sold me a car not fit for purpose. He then eventually told me I could bring it to the garage and they would, as a gesture of good will, have it repaired at cost price, which I am obviously not happy with. I informed him I will be contacting trading standards and the finance company and that I wont be using the car anymore.
From now I am at a loss as to what I can do. He has said good luck to me basically, laughed and said I wont get my money back because "no-one is gonna put a gun to my head" as if thats what its going to take.
Has anyone come across a situation like this or can anyone please tell me what to do from now?!!
Thanks in advance for advice offered and thanks for taking the time (during beers sips) to read the post.
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Does the rule about just handing a car that's been bought on credit, back to the supplier and all contracts are null and void, apply to a used car as well?
Anyway, I'm sure you can reject the car. It went wrong under warranty, and they failed to fix the same fault on a number of occasions.
Problem is, if this guy is a shark, you'll probably have to take him to small claims.
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One other thing, and I know this doesn't help you much from a financial perspective, but there was a guy in my home town who put messages all over his car to the effect that the dealer who sold him a duff car was a shark, and not to buy anything from them. Said dealer disappeared soon after, which was nice.
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The first paragraph of advice I will look into...thanks. Probably will end up in small claims with him saying, "dizzy blonde left lights on......on every occasion!"
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jase1 - I wouldn't describe buying duff car and than having the dealer disappearing as 'a result' - not a good one anyway! Raysgirl - SFAIK it is up to a dealer to prove that any fault occurring on a car which he sells was not present when he sold it, for a period of up to 6 months. Others will post on this with some degree of knowledge I expect.
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Thanks.....and I hope so!
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Quote from DTi website
"Sale of Goods Act
Under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 traders must sell goods that are as described and of satisfactory quality.
If consumers discover that products do not meet these requirements they can reject them and ask for their money back providing they do so quickly. Alternatively, they can request a repair or replacement or claim compensation.
The Sale of Goods Act has been amended by the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002 which transpose a European Directive. Although the impact of the Regulations is relatively modest there are some useful benefits for consumers.
Our Traders Guide and Quick Facts page offer further information and advice. Consumer Direct offers loads of advice for consumers who have a complaint under the Act. "
Full details here
www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/buying-selling/sale-suppl...l
and here
www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/before_you_buy/thinking_.../
Good luck
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Phil
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in addition to phil-w's links, look also at
www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023045.htm
Statutory Instrument 2002 No. 3045
The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002
and
www.dti.gov.uk/files/file25486.pdf
A traders guide: the law relating to the supply of goods and services
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But as I understand it, when you buy an older car, you have no right to expect a perfectly working car and have to expect that some repairs will be necessary of a car of that age. Also any problems that should have been picked up by an inspection before the sale don't count.
If he jump started it, then it's probably a battery problem - maybe alternator not charging or battery is a duffer. It may just need a new battery. If so that is 100% your responsibility to get - that's just a routine service item.
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If so that is 100% your responsibility to get - that's just a routine service item
i think you are 100% wrong in stating that opinion.
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i think you are 100% wrong in stating that opinion.
I think Dalglish that you will find that 'wear & tear' items are not included in this 6 months ruling. A battery is a wear & tear item.
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Indeed. Ordinary wear and tear/service items not covered. One expects these items to wear out on an older car. Case law backs me up on it.
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I have never ever seen "Change Battery" as an item in the servicing of any car I have ever used. It is a consumeable and is replaced when it ceases to function. I don't know what the warranty position is but that is another matter.
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No, maybe not a "service item" then as service schedules say only to check it at certain intervals - consumable is a better word - point remains the same though.
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I dont think this is a battery problem though
Its a 6 year old pewgot therefore it will have the wonderful can-bus.
As i understand it the can bus should send everything to sleep after a period of time after the car is locked,if it doesnt do this then the battery will indeed go flat.
Seems to me the dealer who i assume is not a pewgot agent hasnt basically got a clue and thinks that revving its nuts off will cure a long standing fault,a bit like a dealer i saw yesterdaty he was revving a 1.0 litre corsa to and beyond to try and get the eml light off,LACK OF KNOWLEDGE CAN BE A DANGEROUSK THING
suggest OP takes car for a second opinion to someone who knows a cob from a teacake
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I would not be amused if I bought a six year old car from a dealer and was told that I had to replace the battery myself. Just sayin' like.
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Nope me neither.
Wouldn't take him to court and expect to win either though.
Good luck.
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I don't really know much about this, but since you bought the car on finance, isn't this actually the finance company's responsibility too?
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Agree with bell boy.
Get it to a garage that knows or a peugeot dealer and get a written report on the problem.
Take this to the seller and if necessary to the small claims. But without it you are struggling. His word against yours etc. In court he would be able to "suggest" its nothing more than lights left on by driver and not his responsibility.
With a written report he doesnt get that chance.
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I will take to a gargae and get a report as advised. Let the battle commence, I refuse to pay for this mistake for the next 5 years;while having to still take the poxy bus!!
Thanks to everyone who replied.
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gargae-garage....tutu tut!
Yorkiebar when you say you agree with bellboy, are you meaning about the can bus shutting everything down?
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Doubt it's the CAN-BUS, they catch a lot of flak on here but I think in reality are very reliable. When the car "shuts down", does the word "ECON" or "ECONOMY" appear anywhere on the various screens inside?
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I mean it sounds like an eletrical problem of some sort; and therefore the canbus is 1st suspect.
regardless od other peoples opinions they can and do cause problems (but they do also get blamed for other problems too).
Whether it is canbus problem or not, it needs an experienced capable persons report to give you any chance of anything more than your word against his.
Good luck and keep us informed.
Oh, and if you do get the report, keep the itemised bill. If it shows up asa problem that the seller is responsible for he can reimburse you!
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It sounds to me as if the car has an intermittent fault, which can happen in all manner of mechanical and electrical items. It doesn't necessarily mean that the car is "duff". Intermittent faults are notoriously difficult to find. All it may need is a more knowledgeable technician to locate the fault and cure it. Was the supplying dealer a reputable franchised dealer or just a small second-hand car dealer? If the supplying dealer hasn't been sufficiently competent to have located the fault by now then there's no reason to think that they ever will be, and hence there may be no point in talking to them any more. If you're otherwise satisfied with the car, then the best course of action might be to just take the car to a franchised dealer and let them sort it.
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L\'escargot.
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Sorry to hear this. A colleague of mine at work had bought a 206 and it behaved as you described. The engine will fail to start and will switch itself off during driving (I can see this is a safety issue). He was lucky when he told me this. I told him to demand an exchange of the car straight away. Hope you didn't buy it from the Derbyshire area, it may be the same car.
I think the P 206 is suffering from the well know manufactuirng/design flaw. This is on Watchdog before. Even Pug don't know the fix, so the dealer will not have a clue.
Best is get rid of the car. Try and get your money back or exchange for another car.
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Car should be fit for purpose, does'nt matter whether the fault is a service item, wear or tear etc... Your best bet is to contact your local trading standards office. The will take your details and ask for copies of any paperwork. They will advise you of your legal position and then contact the dealer to try and sort it out. I would suggest you document (with date and times) all the problems, and what the dealer has done (or not done). Make a copy of any letters you've sent and details of phone conversations, trading standards will want all this info.
In my experiance it will be sorted over the phone, you've paid for a car to get you from A to B. If say the AC stopped working after a month, then depending on the age and amount paid for the car, you might only get a contribution. But for something as major as not starting, this is unacceptable.
It might be worth getting a statement from those that tried to help you get it started, I don't see how they can accuse you of leaving the lights on as he did'nt point that out at the time.
If the dealer fails to rectify or refuses to fix the fault FOC, then you would be asked to return the car with a letter. DO NOT use the car at all until the situation has been resolved, using the car will weaken any case you have. You could in fact, leave the car with the dealer now, with a covering letter to further prove how unfit the goods are.
Do let us know how you get on.
james
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But for something as major as not starting this is unacceptable.
It may be just a minor electrical problem which nevertheless is beyond the competence of the dealer to diagnose, especially if they're a small second-hand dealer. Getting angry with the dealer won't make him/them any more competent. Cut your losses and take the car to somewhere competent.
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L\'escargot.
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Agree it may be beyond competence of the seller, but the purchaser is entitled to a car that starts and runs.
They should at least foot the bill if they canot sort it.
If they dont foot the bill; then small claims it should be.
But it needs diagnosis and cure 1st.
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It may be just a minor electrical problem which nevertheless is beyond the competence of the dealer to diagnose especially if they're a small second-hand dealer. Getting angry with the dealer won't make him/them any more competent. Cut your losses and take the car to somewhere competent. -- L\'escargot.
Cause maybe minor but the fault is still a major fault. If he takes it to somewhere else then he has to recover his money. I think its better to get the garage to take it somwhere else or get his money back. If he has given the dealer a resonable chance to fix it then there should'nt be a prob. But like I said, he is best to talk to Trading Standards first think tomorrow and not to use the car in the mean time.
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If he takes it to somewhere else then he has to recover his money.
Not necessarily. I said ""Cut your losses and ................."
I don't see the point of hitting your head against a brick wall if, for what could well be a relatively small sum, you can get the fault properly cured at a competent garage. From the description of the symptoms there's a good chance that the fault doesn't involve any major or expensive components. It's probably just one temperamental electrical item. My approach to any problem is to calmly and rationally consider all the facts and options, and then take the easiest route to the ultimate solution. If the OP isn't careful he might end up charging around like a bull in a china shop. All he needs is the car repairing. Forget about the attitude of the seller or whether he's being unreasonable.
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L\'escargot.
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Its quite possible the garage know what the fault is and that's why the OP is being fobbed off, they don't want another garage to look for the fault. Who knows, maybe the car has been returned once before! Would not surprise me.
A friend who had a Renault had the same sort of problem, it was with a top of the range Serfrane, in the end it got shipped back to the factory or something and Renault themselves could not fix it. Something about a bad earth somewhere, anyway car was sold off. The OP's might be a Friday car, who knows. I would be interested to hear what the OP is going to do.
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Bit of a girly girl and this is my first car so I know I am no expert in saying this but.... I really don't think there is a problem with the battery. The lights are all still bright when switched on, radio works as do hazards. So if it was a duff battery (my fault for leaving the lights on; according to dodgy salesman) then why are all these still in perfect working order?
I am informing the trader tommorow (in writing of course) of my intention to seek an independent report and offering him the third and final opportunity to have the car repaired. Which I know will make no difference because he doesn't want to know.
I will probably end up rejecting the car to be honest, I will decide within the next couple of days. I don't have much faith in it or feel safe ferrying my children around in it. Will let you all know though.
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I am informing the trader tommorow (in writing of course) of my intention to seek an independent report ........
Just remember that you'll have to pay for an independent report. Make sure you don't spend money to no good purpose.
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L\'escargot.
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You are going to have to pay to get the work sorted and claim it back too by the look of it, so add the cost of the report with it and if it backs up the belief that it is a fault on the car then claim that from the seelr too.
Good luck and keep us informed.
Giving him his last chance in writing is a good idea if it does have to go furhter to sort out!
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I am informing the trader tommorow (in writing of course) of my intention to seek an independent report and offering him the third and final opportunity to have the car repaired. Which I know will make no difference because he doesn't want to know. I will probably end up rejecting the car to be honest I will decide within the next couple of days. I don't have much faith in it or feel safe ferrying my children around in it. Will let you all know though.
You need to decide whether you want the car inspected or reject it, can't do both. If you want to reject the car for refund, you need to do this NOW. You have had the car for a month already, any longer and the chances of getting a full refund get smaller. TBH I don't see the point in getting a report, it won't fix the problem. By getting a report you are accepting the car with the fault, and at best will get a third party to fix the fault, paid for by the dealer but this will be a long dragged out process and may not be worth it.
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Whilst I agree with your theory about trading standards; they are relativley toothless unless a definite illegal trade has taken place. This is a 2 sided case until proof is established.
Solicitor or report and reimbursement are the 2 best ideas imo.
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But sometimes a polite call from TS to the vendor helps. As soon as you get a solicitor involved, the dealer will dig his heels in and prolly involve his.
Not much else to say really, its up to the OP to decide what to do next, but good luck and do let us know how it goes.
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... a polite call from TS to the vendor helps ..
either
1. call
www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/
who will pass your details to the local trading standards.
or
2. use the template letters at
www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/after_you_buy/making-com.../
or
3. see a solicitor.
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Not as much as your wallet, to date!
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Sorry if i've missed it but in what way does the car not start?
If the starter doesn't work then maybe its just a simple intermittent connection to the starter.
Also if the car has a wanring buzzer to tell you you've left the lights on you can use that to support you when the salesman says you did.
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Sorry if i've missed it but in what way does the car not start? If the starter doesn't work then maybe its just a simple intermittent connection to the starter.
In my inept way this is exactly the point I've been trying to make. There's been no suggestion that the car was difficult to start, just that on occasions it wouldn't start at all ~ which points to it being a simple fault, albeit beyond the competence of the trader to diagnose. It would be a different matter if the car needed the replacement of a major and expensive item, but it doesn't sound as if it does. I think it just needs someone competent to diagnose the problem, and (probably relatively cheaply) cure it. If it was me (which I know it isn't) I would forget all about the trader and get the car fixed at my own expense. I just wouldn't want the sort of aggro some people have suggested that raysgirl piles on herself. There's more than one way to defur a feline.
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L\'escargot.
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I think the OP has to consider what would make her better off:
1. A working car (ideally at no cost to herself); or
2. A refund.
She then needs to work towards one of those goals.
If she's paid £3,500 with £1,500 interest on top then clearly she's better off going for a refund and getting out of the finance deal also. At £3,500 she should have her pick of 2001 206s.
If on the other hand all she wants is a working car and negotiations with the trader have broken down then she should simply get the car fixed at her own expense and sue the trader for the costs. Then she can have the joy of sending the bailiffs in when he refuses to pay his CCJ - and worsens his trade credit rating for good measure. She *should* only be talking about a couple of hundred pounds at stake and she can't be made liable for his defence costs in any event - so if he wants to pay them, it's up to him.
Given that her action would be for breach of contract, she has six years from the date of the breach to sue - so there is no urgency in her going to see a solicitor. As she would be responsible for her own fees (if she chooses to incur any), my feeling is that she's better off talking to Trading Standards first but not spending too long on it. After that, she can discuss matters with a solicitor without having prejudiced her case at all in the meantime.
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