I am looking at an Octavia estate as replacement for my company Mercedes E270CDi Elegance automatic which has been superb but which carries a large tax liability. I am seeking good performance, some comfort and space and decent handling in a very tax efficient package.
I have discounted A4/ C Class/ 3 series etc on grounds of cost.
I haven't driven either of the Octavia 2.0TDi 140 or 170 vRS diesel models yet and before I do was wondering what anyone's experience of either is?
HJ reviews suggest the 140 engine and DSG go very well together and offer good performance and decent economy. I prefer auto but is the manual 170 diesel vRS worth the premium or is the vRS that much better with the petrol 2.0FSi?
Any views much appreciated.
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Audi A3 2.0TDi (140) with DSG. 30,000 trouble free miles covered and it's a perfect combination of easy motoring with decent fuel economy. I'd advise back to back test drives between DSG and manual, but I wouldn't go back to manual.
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Interesting - this is exactly the thought-process I'm going through, for some time in the coming year, also to replace a Mercedes. In my case (B-class) it's down to excessive engine noise, mediocre economy and acceleration certainly inferior to the Octavia TDI 140 DSG I test-drove before being attracted by a good PCP deal from Mercedes.
You lose little or no performance or economy with the DSG gearbox, and I was impressed by the whole car. I have asked for a test run in a TDI 170 - I don't think there are many demonstrators about yet. Auto Express tested one and said that the petrol vRS (which I have tried) was generally better to drive.
I wonder if the extra performance of a 170 over a 140 is more at the top end. and thus not so noticeable in everyday driving. I think I've seen the comment that the turbo kicks in more abruptly in the 170 than the 140. Maybe there are some Golf, Passat or A3/A4 drivers who might help us here?
Do let us know how you get on.
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I test drove both and chose the petrol vRS as IMHO its engine is a gem and it's only costing me an extra £18 a month in tax over the diesel. I thought the diesel had plenty of grunt, almost too much and it came in quite suddenly as well as all taking place in a narrow power band whereas the petrol is very smooth and linear. Some reports of dodgy particulate filters interfering with the engine management resulting in cars off the road for days and weeks with not brilliant high 30's mpg discouraged me. I also test drove a L&K TDi 140 with DSG and would have chosen that over the vRS diesel if I had to go diesel. I'm impressed with my vRS estate, loads of go, good handling and ride, nice cabin and well screwed together. I mainly do long runs and get between 28 to 35 mpg which considering how it's usually driven is good enough for me.
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With a 70 mph speed limit why do you need all these suffix letters .
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Stop being such a killjoy Andy ;-)
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The basic octavia will exceed far in excess of 100mph and has acceleration far above any needs the only reason for these suffixes is say look what I have got.As far as being a killjoy perhaps the operative word is kill ,dangerous fast careless driving kills.When I drive down the unrestricted parts of the autobahns I often travel at very high speeds but the UK is a crowded place where road deaths are on the increase not unfortunatley in decline.If I am a killjoy in wanting my fellow ctizens to stay alive and uninjured then let it be so.
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And Germany is uncrowded is it? Also, for the most part they have only two-lane autobahns.
I think the real issue is that we're so wet and mimsy that WE can't cope with high-speed driving, whereas the Germans can. I want people to stay alive and uninjured but I also want them to DRIVE and be alert rather than poncing around in an airbag protected haze....
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A4. A2 three lane race tracks.
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The fatality rate in Germany is nearly twice that of the UK (autobahn compared to Mways) so the Germans are not such ubermensch as some like to imagine.
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Are you sure your on the right website. Having a car with 'letters' is about 'driveability'. And having the power to get out of danger has saved me a few times. (And as an experienced Police advanced driver, I feel qualified to comment) It's pretty offensive to say that driving a sports version of a vehicle automatically equates to 'dangerous, fast driving'.
It doesn't matter whether it's a supercar or a supermini, the only dangerous thing in the equation is the person behind the wheel. A responsible driver will be safe in any car, an irresponsible driver will be dangerous in a mini.
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I totally agree but as an advanced driver you should know one of the first lessons is not to get into such a situation in the first place defencive driving is safe driving. that is what I was taught when I took my IAM test in the 60's.
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There seems to be me to be little correlation between sportiness of car and quality of driving.
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Guys - I'm not the mod, but please can we get back to the detail of 140 vs 170 thing. Kindly rant about supposed excessive power somewhere else - I suggest the "knitting for miseries" website.
This Octavia debate is very much in my thoughts at present as the A4 Avant is going on 31st August, and I want to learn more..
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I have driven both, and to be honest the 170 was "a bit much". Very very quick though, and I am sure one would get used to it. But but but... how cool does the vRS look?! Really.... it's quite a looker. I'd be tempted to go for it on those shallow terms alone. Especially in that blue colour.
Guess I am not a candidate for "knitting for miseries" eh? : )
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Back to the original question - I am also going through the same thought process for the Honda's replacement but have not got as far as driving anything yet.
Colleague recently drove the vRS diesel and his comments were " fast, and all the power comes in a rush!"
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Have the Golf TDI 140 DSG - only criticism is it tends to hold on to a higher gear longer than you would changing manually; this is in "D" mode and is probably in the interest of economy. Most noticeable when following slow traffic up hills, or up-ramps to motorways. Otherwise great and economy exceptional
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Colin, that's interestuing.. I have an A3 TDi 140 DSG (ooh look at me with my suffixes, what an 'andsome devil I am) and I find that if I am in D I often end up knocking my paddle to up it into 5th or 6th when I would have already been in those gears.... maybe I am just a tightwad! : )
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Thanks for the comments so far.
I think if the vRS 170 came with a DSG 'box (as can be specified on the Golf GTI - which looks nice but lacks the space I need), I think that would answer my query. For me, I think I would find going back to a manual quite hard ( I've read that the clutch in the pertrol vRS can be a little heavy?) and hence the query as to what the differences between the 140 and 170 were - sounds like a little more top end acceleration, but little difference in torque. The DSG 'box sounds what I am after though.
The vRS does look nice but I am not interested in "letters" or status. I could happily opt for another E Class as my current E270 is a great car which combines comfort and performance, which can be used where appropriate. I have also had 2 V70 T5s and a V70R AWD but you don't have to tear around in them of course...
But, with a £3.5k net annual tax liability for my E Class - well...its made me wonder what I could do with the money instead and an Octavia sounds like it could do pretty much anything I need.
It does sound like the pertol is best suited to the vRS though from what has been said. Just a pity you can't have an auto on it.
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You might want to read my last two posts, which were reviews of my 56 plate Leon FR TDI with the 170 engine, and my wife's Octavia Estate 2.0TDi 140 manual.
I'm at risk of repeating myself, but as I drive these two engines back to back on a regular basis, at least in the Leon, the 170 engine "feels" a lot quicker, but at low revs (less than 2000rpm) i would say there is little torque difference between then. The 170's torque band is narrower than the 140.
It is certainly an interesting proposition replacing the E class with an Octy. The Skoda is well built but even in high spec form it doesn't really feel expensive, like I'm sure your Merc does. Have you considered a Passat? I think that might be available with the 170 engine and the DSG box.
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This is exactly the process I went though last month. I didn't notice any real difference in the clutch feel on the diesel and petrol vRS. I think if you test drive the 140 DSG and the 170 vRS the lack of 30 bhp and the extra torque won't be the disappointment you might be thinking it will be. A 140 DSG Laurin & Klement is a high spec car with the following as standard over the vRS - curtain airbags, dual zone climate, rear parking sensors, cruise control, variable boot floor, dimming rear mirror, auto sensor wipers, xenons and washers, higher spec audio, rear screen blind, full leather, multi function computer and rear elec windows. (Why Skoda don't include curtain airbags and rear elec windows on an £18K car is difficult to deal with but they don't.) Very close on list price to the vRS, company car tax of around £1500 a year makes it a few hundred less than a vRS with a few options and a BIG saving on your Merc for what is is a very good car with excellent dealers (in my experience of owning 2 Skodas). You could do what I did and test drive all 3 options. My last 6 cars have been diesels so maybe I fancied a change but anyway, within a few minutes of driving the petrol TFSi I wanted it more than I wanted the desirable enough option of comfy, speedy, high spec auto diesel which is probably what I'll revert back to in 3 years time having indulged myself!
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Thanks - sounds like the 170 offers no major benefit over the 140, so will try and arrange a test drive in a 140 DSG L&K or similar this weekend, But the dealer also has a petrol vRS so I might just try that too! Shall let you know how it goes.
I have also looked at the A3 and Golf but really need more room. I also looked up the Passat SEL 170 DSG but that's pushing the cost nearer that of the Merc (though not quite the £560 a month lease plus tax that the Merc works out at). Any allowance left over can offset the tax so the Skoda works out very effficient.
The Merc is great - '53 plate, 64k, feels as new, totally reliable - but having resigned myself to downsizing, I have decided to take the route of the Skoda. I had an S reg 1.6GLX (old shape) years ago (before I discovered T5s - and torque steer) and it was alright. Then I went to rear wheel drive (Omega, E Class). The 3 series 320d appeals but I am not sure whether the premium for that or a C Class, A4 etc is worth it. And once you add some options...
I also tried an new A6 Avant S - line with the 2.0TDi m'tronic recently to assess dropping an engine size in a big car but it felt underwhelming and not as solid as the E Class. So the Skoda it may be.
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Thank you so much, Dulwich Estate, for getting this very interesting thread back on track. These 'what shall I get next' debates are immensely useful and - if we stick to them - the thing the forum does best.
One other thing to throw in the pot is that there will be a Golf estate coming later in the summer. If VW do what they did when I got my Y-reg TDi in 2001, they will make the top engine (115 bhp then) available with the SE spec - the hatchbacks then as now had to be Sport or GT, at a hefty price premium. Now a choice of 140 or 170 with DSG in an estate would be very nice.
I'm a training manager who spends part of the time driving 5 miles to my firm's Reading office, or 5 miles to the station to go to the London office, and part of the time going all over England and Wales to give lectures (on things like money laundering and company law reform). About 20,000 miles pa.
The point of all that is to say that a diesel automatic is ideal - as was my A4 Avant 2.5 TDI - but that was an expensive luxury and I think an Octavia estate, or a return to a Golf estate, would do most of the job, and do it more quietly than the current B-class.
I'll also try, when it comes out, the Citroen Picasso 5-seat. I don't need a vast wagon, but apart from the engine the B-class is just the right size and shape: compact in town, but big enough to be comfortable and relaxing on a long run. In fairness the Mercedes is very good on the motorway part of my driving.
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Photo of the Golf estate:
tinyurl.com/23wkye
The ones in AutoBild were better, but I couldn´t find them.
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My circumstances are a little different to Avant in that I have now more or less retired from work but still do the odd bit of consultancy work from time to time. I do 15000+ miles pa with a good half of it in France - the remainder in slow moving / stop start UK traffic (you know the kind of thing - 2 hours of crawl to get 20 miles).
Diesel and fuel efficient automatic are my needs.
I need more volume / space than a saloon offers but find the Passat Estate a bit big and pricey now. The new Mondeo estate looks interesting, but that's probably a bit big too and has a conventional auto box - the price could be good though.
The next thing to do is to test drive the Skoda with DSG.
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Don't dismiss the 1.9 litre 115bhp diesel in the Octavia either. The turbo isn't as sudden as the 2.0 litre 140bhp, so it can be more comfortable for stop-start driving.
AFAIK, there's an auto option on the 1.9, but I'm not sure whether its DSG or tiptronic for the 2007 model year. Could be worth a drive too while you're at the dealer's.
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I'm particularly keen on an auto-box that's economical with fuel. So it's most likely going to be a VW group multitronic / tiptronic / steel belts or DSG box. The problem is I might want to keep the car longer than3 years and there's no chance whatsoever of me hanging on to the former for more than 3 years. Tha Avant's a lovely car, but I just can't cope with the anxiety of running one past the guarantee date. What does a tiptronic repair cost? I'm hoping that the DSG system which is more conventional will be more reliable and cheaper to fix if needed.
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DSG is the newest of the autobox technologies (twin automated clutches, with alternate ratios on two driveshafts so second is engaged and ready to go before it releases first etc). Torque converters have been around years and multitronic-type CVTs have been offered since the early 90s.
So, of the three, DSG is the one I'd have the most doubt over regarding long-term reliability. Maybe one of the backroom's mechanical experts can offer a more definite verdict?
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I took the afternoon off to do some showroom browsing and managed to try a diesel vRS after all - having discounted it - as the dealer had just sold the petrol vRS and hadn't got a 140 DSG after all (and didn't think the 105 DSG an adequate comparison).
What has been written about the diesel's power band is true and I felt it was totally mismatched to the car - too much sudden power which then drops off begging an upshift. I didn't enjoy the drive and couldn't get comfortable.
The salesman insisted that the petrol would be an altogether different experience, and I can believe it, but I have realised that I can't be doing with a manual so that discounts the vRS.
I think my expectations have been a bit unrealistic anyway though despite having a completely open mind about this exercise. I looked at an new Passat 140 SE estate in the showroom which had plenty of room but I was appalled by the flimsiness of the interior - loose switches, storage rays that wouldnot open or close properly, soft seats with poor support, the blandness - the Skoda was much functional but it actually felt more solid than the VW.
I then stopped at the BWM garage and tried a 320d SE auto tourer, just to dicsount ti complelely and tell myself I wasn't going to follow the pack. Stark, drab interior, pointless start button and left hand key position, not many toys - but drove sublimely. Like a scaled down version of my Merc: rear wheel drive heaven.
Then Audi rang asking if I'd like to try an A4.
So I decided to head for home with brochures, head arguing with heart, absolutely none the wiser...
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Mercian - it depends by how much you want to reduce your tax bill.
My last car, an A4 2.5 TDI, was far and away the best car I've ever had, and if I can afford another (2.7 TDI now) when the time comes to change I'll do it like a shot. If you have a look at the buyer's guide in What Car you can compare monthly tax bills, and an A4 is likely to be quite a lot cheaper than your current Mercedes, but equally quite a lot more than an Octavia.
Try an A4 6-cylinder diesel multitronic and it'll give you 90 % of the driving enjoyment of a BMW without the snags you've mentioned (and you didn't mention the stupid seat adjusting mechanism on 3-series but it would annoy you). I'd say it would be a good compromise between head and heart.
One more thought - from your comments so far a Mercedes B-class would fit the bill - I have one now and it's a good car in many ways. but if you go for a diesel you'll need to be more careful on the test drive than I was, and decide whether you can live with the engine noise.
Keep telling us how you get on!
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I meant to add - manby thanks Barchettaman for the picture of the Golf estate. It'll be interesting to see how much more expensive it is than the equivalent Octavia, and what it will offer in return - given that the engine, gearbox etc will presumably be identical. Let's hope it's a bit more than damped grab handles.
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AutoBild said it would be similar capacity-wise to the old shape Passat estate.
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