So is the car still covered by the original 3-year warranty or are you relying on the Approved Used one?
For what it's worth I had a flash upgrade on my E-class FOC, and I think others have too - check the Merc owners site.
|
>>So is the car still covered by the original 3-year warranty or are you relying on the Approved Used one?
The approved used one. Did your upgrade fix a fault of some kind - or was it more an 'extra' or 'improver' type thing?
|
I think (hope) that perhaps you're just caught in the different divisions of a corporate world!
The servicing dealer won't want to pay, as these software upgrades can be very time consuming. The used warranty bit of MB won't want to pay for the same reason. I would either work on the original supplying dealer, or else contact DC-UK customer service directly.
If this has been issue since you owned the car, then the dealer should have sorted it out under the original new car warranty. You're on good ground if you reported it within the 3 years but got fobbed off.
|
|
|
|
Seems quite simple to me (as a programmer), if the software is causing a problem and the problem can be sorted by updating to the latest version, then it is a bug fix (so included under warranty) and not an upgrade. An upgrade would involve receiving new features, not bug fixes.
Somebody needs to take this to court, trying to charge outrageous amounts by claiming there's something special about software problems (as compared to good old fashionable mechanical failure) is disingenuous at best. I don't expect to have pay out to Microsoft every time I download an update - I've paid for my operating system and it's been found to be faulty - Microsoft have to update it. A software program in a car is no different in any way shape or form, especially whilst under warranty. Fitness for purpose and all that!
|
Yes OilBurner, exactly the same logic I would apply - I tried making a similar point in my telephone conversation with the warranty person. I found it hard to understand his point about the software somehow becoming 'degraded' or in some way partially working - my understanding is that the software works correctly or it doesn't & has always been flawed (or has bugs)
I can understand a degree of 'learning' or dynamic adaptation in systems (I write telecoms software for a living) & dynamic memory being erased under power-off situations. What I don't understand is basic algorithms or software in hard or read-only-memory being altered or 'degraded' , as it was implied when I spoke to him, through some 'user' action.
As you say, it was just the correct (original intended) gearbox function I wanted, not some fancy new shift-system or extra functionality.
cheers
woodbines
|
Yes OilBurner, exactly the same logic I would apply - I tried making a similar point in my telephone conversation with the warranty person.
I would suspect that the problem you're having is because a warranty person generally deals in things that have failed (ie broken) and need replacing. Your car hasn't broken, it just isn't working correctly. I think you're talking to the wrong person. A decent dealer should sort this out seamlessly.
|
|
|
|
Dear OB
YOu have obviously never read your software license agreement, You dont own your software, you have a license to use it, You have no right, consumer or otherwise to free fixes even if its not FFP.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
|
|
Are you sure it's not meant to do it? The gearbox in my Astra (some AW thing) used to do exactly this and it's described as a "feature" to help the engine warm up faster by holding 1st and 2nd gear for longer.
|
|
|
Agreed TVM - I never said I did own it. If I a software product I bought (or as you rightfully point out bought the right to use) was faulty, I expect and indeed get free updates where there are problems. So cars are no different, IMO.
Even though I don't own the software outright, it still has to be fit for purpose. Just the same as if I hire a gardener. I don't own him, but he still has to do the job I asked him to do (within reasonable parameters) or he doesn't get paid! :)
|
|
|
|
I've paid for my operating system and it's been found to be faulty - Microsoft have to update it.
I seriously doubt that that's true. How many bugs are there in (say) XP? Some will never get fixed, and of course microsoft won't update it for ever. And even if you'd bought XP from PCWorld, they'd want paying if you turned up there and asked them to apply the upgrade.
I am a bit amazed that the OP can't get the update done, but I suspect that it's one of those things were you just need to get hold of the right person to give the OK.
|
Thanks for all the feedback. Unfortunately, having just spoken to the dealer again, it seems the ECU/memory problem is a red-herring & they've found discoloured or contaminated auto gearbox oil - which I'm told could come from the radiator (apparently this cools the auto box as well)
Goes from bad to worse & still no definite answer as to the warranty coverage. They say asked for my approval to proceed with the 'investigation' - well, I said yes - was that sensible, given this rather 'fuzzy' situation re the warranty?
-tomorrow they're flushing the 'sealed for life' autobox, see if that helps(!) - but I'd like to know the cause if that 's it, otherwise it's like replacing a fuse & not knowing why it blew in the first place.
I'm starting to find this warranty business utterly unbelieveable - if the car has been sold as an approved used car, with manufacturer's approved used warranty & serviced according to schedule, why on earth is there any question at all about warranty liability or coverage on something as fundamental as a malfunctioning gearbox when it's not been suggested in any way it could be anything other than a fault or falure with some component or system
I'll hold my ire until tomorrow, see what revelations that brings.
cheers
woodbines
|
Thanks for all the feedback. Unfortunately, having just spoken to the dealer again, it seems the ECU/memory problem is a red-herring & they've found discoloured or contaminated auto gearbox oil - which I'm told could come from the radiator (apparently this cools the auto box as well)
This is a known issue on cars produced before Sept 2003 that have Valeo radiators.
They need to do a glycol test.
|
>>This is a known issue on cars produced before Sept 2003 that have Valeo radiators.
>>They need to do a glycol test.
Yep, Bill Payer, this concurs with the info I got on the MB ownwers forum - excellent response from some very helpful people there - mine was produced June2003 & the symptoms described were the same - it seems from people's experience that there was a bit of argy-bargy getting MB to accept & fund the repairs, although to be fair those cases were out of new car warranty period (mine's the 'approved used warranty' ) - which is what's concerning me frankly.
A poster on the MB forum kindly posted up an actual bulletin sheet from the manufacturer outlining the history/symptoms/pre-cursors & diagnostics to pinpoint this - it all sadly concurs with 'my' problem.
I'm assuming(!) that it shouldn't be too much hassle getting the warranty admin. to fund the repair if this is the case, as it's surely a case of defective manufacture or faulty component causing it?
The bulletin mentions 'old crimping method used to assemble radiator end tanks..' which implies to me a manufacturing or assembly fault.
Opinions gratefully received on this.
woodbines
|
|
|
|
Somebody needs to take this to court, trying to charge outrageous amounts by claiming there's something special about software problems (as compared to good old fashionable mechanical failure) is disingenuous at best. I don't expect to have pay out to Microsoft every time I download an update - I've paid for my operating system and it's been found to be faulty - Microsoft have to update it. A software program in a car is no different in any way shape or form, especially whilst under warranty. Fitness for purpose and all that!
>>
But is this strictly speaking a 'fault' or 'failure' or 'problem'? Over a process of continuous development, the manufacturer has found that the transmission quality improves noticeably by reprogramming or up-dating software. We all know that pretty much all cars improve in most areas over the models production cycle. You have bought a car that was made earlier on and so does not offer a shift quality that is perhaps as refined as in a later car. In my opinion it is no different if for instance your car had what you felt was excessive wind noise, which was not apparent on a later version due to an improved door seal or something. In such a scenario you would either live with it or pay up for the newer improved component.
Car manufacturers have to draw the line somewhere, and you can't expect them to give away a free upgrade every time an improved component is introduced.
Personally I would just pay for the upgrade.
|
|
But if the Merc auto shift is jerky, it is a fault. I've driven a number of torque-converter autos, all of which were smooth in changing all the gears. Ford, Chevrolet, (USA), Volvo, even a lowly Proton. Its a fault and the remedy is for the dealer to resolve.
|
I know what you mean about the hard-shifting 1-2, its known as a 'hammer shift' in the trade. Basically I would interpret this as a defect in the software, which they have now managed to identify and rectify. The charge you mention is a disgrace and is simply greed on the part of MB (UK) - as is the £500 you mention for their 'B' service. The software upgrade is quick and simple to apply, it **does not** take a long time (although a dealer may try to convince you otherwise!). I had a C-class CDI for sale last year (the first and last!) and had the software upgraded - I'm on good terms with a tech at the local dealer and got it done FOC.
I don't want to panic you, but the discolooured ATF is a bad sign - sounds like antifreeze contamination (in fact there is little chance it is anything else). Once the antifreeze gets in there is damages the frction materials (the clutches are basically faced with paper!). It could turn ugly (full rebuild) so I would go throught the warranty small print with a fine tooth comb - look for exclusions and a limit on payout.
|
It could turn ugly
No it won't - if that is the fault then MB will sort it out.
|
>> It could turn ugly No it won't - if that is the fault then MB will sort it out.
Let's hope so.
I can't understand why the dealer is doing a flush on the autobox. If its burnt fluid then there is transmission fault. if its coolant contamination then doing a flush won't help, it will just delay the inevitable. A flush is OK for old and dirty fluid, but not when there is burning or contamination.
Incidentally, using 'Winter' mode routinely in normal driving is not a good idea - it puts a lot more load on the TC and causes the fluid to heat up. Running in Winter all the time in town is defintely not a good thing.
|
Incidentally, using 'Winter' mode routinely in normal driving is not a good idea - it puts a lot more load on the TC and causes the fluid to heat up. Running in Winter all the time in town is defintely not a good thing.
There are often arguments about this, but MB say it doesn't matter and in fact it's called Comfort now, not Winter. I just find it makes the car feel slow-witted (and diesel auto's are never sparkling at the best of times) so I drive in Standard (or 'sport' as it used to be called).
On the glow-plug thing, the dealers have a special impact driver type tool that apparently removes them OK.
|
>> There are often arguments about this, but MB say it doesn't matter and in fact it's called Comfort now, not Winter.
In this mode you are making the torque convertor work a lot harder. Having rebuilt many auto transmissions over 20+ years I know that I would not use this mode on my car - you are doing the torque multiplication in the fluid, and not in the gearset. In slow traffic on a hot day you would really be boiling the ATF - stick a caravan on the back, a boot full of luggage and put it on a hill and its a recipe for a wrecked transmission.
On the glow-plug thing, the dealers have a special impact driver type tool that apparently removes them OK.
Yes, there is one now, but they are a new thing and were not available when I did the job.
|
|
I had a C-class CDI for sale last year (the first and last!)
What did'nt you like about it?
|
>> I had a C-class >> CDI for sale last year (the first and last!) What did'nt you like about it?
Bought it at auction. Turned out to have a faulty glowplug. Glowplugs siezed (a very common problem according to my mate at the dealership). Lot of stress trying to get it out without breaking it. If they break then its a MAJOR job to get out.
Had the hammer shift problem (which I got sorted) and also had a faulty dash display.
Lot of aggro to be honest. Sold it and made a modest profit. I am not overly impressed by the CDI's anyway, not a Diesel fan. I know some people rave about them, but give me a nice smooth petrol anyday.
|
. I am not overly impressed by the CDI's anyway,not a Diesel fan. I know some people rave about them, but give me a nice smooth petrol anyday.
I reckon your right about diesels in general. As a car trader myself, there is NO WAY I would want to be attempting to retail one of the latest generation diesel cars with big miles (150K+). IMO many people that buy diesels do so as a kneejerk reaction without actually really considering what it is they need from a car, and the potential repair bills at this sort of mileage far outweigh the cost savings.
|
. Turned out to have a faulty glowplug.Glowplugs siezed (a very common problem according to my mate at the dealership). Lot of stress trying to get it out without breaking it. If they break then its a MAJOR job to get out.
Forgot to mention, think i saw Euro Car Parts recently advertising some special equipment for this job (circa £1K), if it's of any help.
|
Forgot to mention, think i saw Euro Car Parts recently advertising some special equipment for this job (circa £1K), if it's of any help.
Yes, I posted on here about it some time ago. Unfortunately I found out about it just after I had done the job. Mind you, I'd have had to find someone who had one - not going to spend £1k on a single job.
|
Returning to the original posting, it seems obvious to me that Mercedes Benz have no intention of providing a worthwhile service to their customers and honouring the spirit of their "warranty". Not people to be doing business with.
659.
|
Don't you just love manufacturer warranties?
BMW told me I needed an entire replacement propshaft and it wouldn't be covered under warranty as it's a 'wear and tear' item. A propshaft??
|
|
Universal joints will certainly wear out.
|
>>This is a known issue on cars produced before Sept 2003 that have Valeo radiators.
>>They need to do a glycol test.
Yep, Bill Payer, this was suggested on the MB owners forum site too, well known fault apparently - mine's June2003 reg.
Well, just rang the dealer again & the 'glycol test' proved negative. They've flushed/replaced the ATF & are waiting for car to cool before retesting. I asked what would cause the deterioration or contamination, answer was either: the oil's just tired & needs replacing, the oil contamination came from the engine(!!) or the previous diagnosis is wrong & the torque converter's kaput.
.
As I imagine you're all on the edge of your seats(!) waiting to hear the result I'll post up when they re-test at about 4pm-ish (the car will be cool by them)
thanks for the input, (esp, Aprilia & Bill Payer)
woodbines
|
|
If it's the same AW-13 (?) gearbox that was in my Astra, the first drive after an oil change is beautifully smooth anyway.
|
BMW told me I needed an entire replacement propshaft and it wouldn't be covered under warranty as it's a 'wear and tear' item. A propshaft??
It's that lack of understanding (by *customers*) of basic mechanical issues that causes disputes and unhappiness.
|
>> BMW told me I needed an entire replacement propshaft and it >> wouldn't be covered under warranty as it's a 'wear and tear' >> item. A propshaft?? >> It's that lack of understanding (by *customers*) of basic mechanical issues that causes disputes and unhappiness.
So whose fault is that, the customer for daring not to understand exactly how his car works, or the dealer for not explaining it?
I'd love you to educate me further on why a propshaft should be considered a wear and tear item as a suspension bush, for example, would be...
|
Returning to the original posting, it seems obvious to me that Mercedes Benz have no intention of providing a worthwhile service to their customers and honouring the spirit of their "warranty". Not people to be doing business with.
You've aleady posted that comment.
Every manufacturer gets slagged off on here, so what's left to buy?
|
Well, the saga continues: The updated autobox software & ATF flush/re-fill didn't work. I got the
car back late last week & was told (& shown from the dealers diagnostic flowchart) to do about 150KM
(90 odd miles) when the jerkiness from 1-2nd gear should gradually dissipate.
I rang the dealer this morning with the bad news. The next stage, it seems, is swapping out the torque converter.
The car, as previously stated is an approved use Mercedes, with their in-house Approved Tier 1 Warranty.
This though it expired on Feb 1st, should cover my gearbox problem as it was ongoing & 'in process' before
the warranty expired. The dealer said he'll talk to the Warranty admin etc. , but was disconcertingly vague
about Warranty's absolute liability - I suppose understably from his perspective.
The warranty handbook seems quite 'solid' when it comes to faulty parts - if the problem is
mechanical it will be covered, if it's 'software' or consumables (as was thought in my case - bad
ATF fluid) it doesn't cover it. Luckily(?) it seems to be now a mechanical problem, but it does concern
me slighlty nonetheless as the Warranty (with no disrespect or prejudice to the Mercedes Warranty admin)
provision has already surprised me, in respect of the non-cover for the software 'upgrade' or autobox ATF change.
I should hear back this afternoon.
Any thoughts, observations or advice would be welcome..
cheers
woodbines
|
Did you check if the car has one of the dodgy Valeo radiators?
I know all this is a pain, but the dealer does have to go through a process to avoid un-necessary part changing. I'm confident that MB will see you OK (and would have done even if the car had been completely out of warranty).
|
>>Did you check if the car has one of the dodgy Valeo radiators?
Hi BP
I was told it wasn't ( I think! ) a Valeo , but definitely no glycol present - they did the 'litmus' test.
To cap it all, I got a puncture this morning, taking the dear old mum shopping - so took the motor to local ATS (where I bought 4 new Michelin Primacy HP's in Sept.) where they kindly fixed it for free!! (I left a tip though)
|
I can't quite see how changing out the TC would affect the 1-2 shift jerkiness. I would be looking at line pressure modulation during the shift. During the shift, engine torque is reduced (via the engine management system) and the input/output shaft speeds are monitored by the TCM. Line pressure is modulated via a solenoid to ensure a smooth engagement of the gears. I would be checking out the ATF temp sensor, and the pressure solenoid itself, also the pressure sensor (if fitted - can't remember on this model). If it does it more when cold then checking ATF temp sensor should be first port of call. Are you 100% sure they have applied the software upgrade?
|
>>Are you 100% sure they have applied the software upgrade?
I'm pretty sure - if 'upgrade' means more keen to drop a gear when overtaking etc., it certainly feels different in its changing regime (problem aside)
What you say Aprilia, makes sense, even though I'm not a mechanic. (although I'm a species of engineer)
From what I can tell, they're following a problen diagnostic flowchart (they showed it to me) - it looks just likes the flows I work from in my line - decision boxes, with alternative 'fixes' etc. flowing down to a big box saying 'change gearbox' at the end.
I've been (hopefully) as explicit & informative as I could have been in the symptom list I presented with - they've also experienced it independently themselves. I'll gently mention the logic flow you outline to them - maybe they're slavishly following the flowchart more than engaging the brain - I spoke to the (very) young mechanic himself - maybe experience tells in these tricky cases.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
