I thought about something working on a similar principle to the transponder immobilisers on cars. You buy a cheap stick on petrol or diesel "chip" like you have in a modern car immobiliser key, which you stick inside the filler flap or within x cm of the filler cap somewhere. A corresponding sensor on the pump nozzle looks for the presence of a chip for the right type of fuel, and if the fuel type on the chip doesn't match the type selected on the pump, the pump shuts off.
You could even set the logic on the pump to allow fuel to be dispensed if it finds no chip at all, to prevent those who have damaged / missing chips from being unable to fill up.
The system would also be unaffected by older pumps in rural France. The system would only come into place if both parts of it (car and pump) were present.
Cheers
DP
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I thought about something working on a similar principle to the transponder immobilisers on cars.
I too had thought about something like this. With all the fuss about RFID chips and privacy these days, that would be a use I'd approve of. Put a short-range RFID chip with the fuel-type encoded on the filler flap or just inside the recess behind it. Then a detector in the pump handle queries the RFID chip and refuses to pump fuel if it's the incorrect type.
I must admit, I'm pretty paranoid about putting in the wrong fuel, I often find myself double checking the pump before filling up. I don't let anyone else (even my wife) fuel my car, just to be on the safe side.
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The device would need to be located in the tank as, I believe, the fuel lines are too tight a space. A sensor in the tank would prevent even start-up. A sensor in the fuel line may get you a mile or two down the road which could be dangerous when the engine then cuts out.
The sensor could differentiate between the viscosity of the two types of fuel.
A sensor that is based on electrical characteristics would be fallible due to the contamination that can be found in tanks and in fuels.
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A system that is dependent, in part, on the filling station pump would not be practical on a UK-wide, let alone on a Europe-wide basis.
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Isn't user education cheaper? The filler caps on my wife's Punto (petrol) and my Passat (diesel) are both black.
Why not have all petrol cars with a green cap, and all diesel cars with a different, prominent colour, with the words DIESEL all over it?
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Wouldn't work. Some people are beyond education. Whilst that may be their problem, that is not the objective of the original post.
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Bring back attended stations then we have someone to sue!!!
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The Ford device is simple,mechanical and requires no electrical,electronic or any other input other than putting the nozzle(even rural French) in the filler.
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All this "rural French pumps" puzzles me a bit. It is very difficult to find fuel stations in France, especially in the country. It is much easier to find fuel in England.
A few years ago when filling my ZX diesel in France, a voice came out of the pump. It startled me at first, but I found out that it was a warning that the pump was diesel. This seems a good idea, why not try it here? In English by the way.
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Wouldn't work. Some people are beyond education. Whilst that may be their problem, that is not the objective of the original post.
So, in that case, the only people they're hurting are themselves, so who cares?
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So, in that case, the only people they're hurting are themselves, so who cares?
Anybody who might to buy a secondhand diesel? You've no way of knowing if it's ever been misfueled, and huge bills could lie a short distance down the road.
And I do *hate* the clever-dick attitude of some people - haven't they ever made a mistake?
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>> So, in that case, the only people they're hurting are themselves, so who cares? >> Anybody who might to buy a secondhand diesel? You've no way of knowing if it's ever been misfueled, and huge bills could lie a short distance down the road. And I do *hate* the clever-dick attitude of some people - haven't they ever made a mistake?
Many, but not on this dozy level!
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The device would need to be located in the tank as, I believe, the fuel lines are too tight a space. A sensor in the tank would prevent even start-up.
IMO you need to prevent any fuel being dispensed. If you have cars immovable on the forecourt requiring recovery then you have only solved half of the problem. ;o)
A sensor such as DP describes could go next to the filler neck, not in it, and if located above the filler neck would be less susceptible to fuel contamination.
Does anyone know the details of the solution Ford have come up with, that they are fitting to cars next year?
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I have read that the Ford system features a filler neck aperture that only opens when a larger nozzle is offered up to it and will not open when a narrower u/l nozzle is applied, I assume it needs even pressure around it's diameter from diesel size nozzles to open and the a narrower nozzle will not be able to apply such pressure evenly.
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I find reading the pump before I pick it up works wonders then some bolt on or electronic piece of rubbish.
Also the fact all the diesels ive ever driven / family has owned have all had DIESEL in big letters around the filler neck.
I still cant understand how people manage to put the wrong fuel in.
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I still cant understand how people manage to put the wrong fuel in.
I have to say I agree. We have one diesel and one petrol car in the family both of which get driven by SWMBO and me, and neither of us have come close to doing it yet.
But people do it, and it would be nice to have something to protect the poor mug who buys a secondhand CR diesel.
Cheers
DP
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if ford are to have a foolproof misfuelling system what exscuse are they going to have for their diesel injection systems failures? jag.
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Regarding my original post
The thought *behind* my original post was thinking of how to save common rail, ( globally)
So even one misfueling of one car (from a certain date) when the tech solution was implimented `could not` happen.
All used common rails being totally safe wherever bought or used across the EU and beyond, from a certain date of manufacture.
The risk of cars being shut down on forecourts by a sensor detecting petrol (for example) being better than a flap and nozzle fix that lets cars through in
exotic places, or circumstances. *The used value of common rail cars being paramount* over a tank drain.
DP says it really, "But people do it, and it would be nice to have something to protect the poor mug who buys a secondhand CR diesel."
IMHO, If a few cars still misfuel and get into the used car pool its no good,
Hope you don`t all groan :) but heres the link again and another poor sap has a £3,000 bill since I last looked (the Hilux)
...... Regards
www.simong.org/index.php?p=902
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"If a few cars still misfuel and get into the used car pool its no good,"
I put that rather badly, I mean if one car gets petrol * into the injection pump* its no good.
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I've just resolved, as a used buyer, never to buy a CR diesel. More trouble than they're worth.
The (actually fairly marginal unless you're doing 20K a year) savings do not warrant the minefield that meets you when buying one of these. And if the problem is a misfuel, no amount of third-party warranties are going to help the situation.
Japanese, petrol, small displacement, few toys. Nothing else seems to make much sense any more.
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Designing pump layout on service station forecourts might help. How often do you
have those 3-4 umps on the same umpp island - maybe putting all petrol/diesel on the same
aisle or different sides would help, with big overhead 'Diesel >>' & 'Petrol >>' lane
inidcators overhead.
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The drivers of vehicles should know what fuel is required, be able to read, and be awake and more or less sober when they refuel.
If those conditions are all present, misfuelling will be unlikely except as the result of malice.
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Sober awake etc can all tick true, but fuelling a car is a routine operation and susceptible to being done on auto pilot. Add in a bit of distraction or a worry and its easy however aware you are.
I've driven diesels since 1993 and never missfuelled but for the grace of God. November 2006, latish journey home from North Wales after a bonfire party, stopped on the A5 for fuel. Got as far as having the petrol nozzle in the filler pipe of SWMBO's 1.9D Berlingo. Only a final lookover saved me.
On reflection I was distracted by SWMBO being unwell, kids squabbling and my having bumped parking at bonfire party overlaid with planning the following week's work (big conference, definitely my balls on the block if it went belly up).
You've either done it already or you might in the future.
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You've either done it already or you might in the future.
Sobering words Bromptonaut and true I'm sure.
I've never done that, but I've done lots of things that might be thought just as stupid.
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Yes Woodbines, it used to be like that I think.
I hope there is no solution that introduces another point of failure and expense such as an in-tank shut-off valve, or RFID verification.
Simple Euro-Norm standard symbols and colour coding would suffice, such as that which you see on the faucets where the tanker driver delivers, you don't see his faucets and valves with such silly labelling as BP Ultimate. He has clear colour-coded plastic plaques and tags, with three peices of info. COLOUR, NAME, SYMBOLS
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Designing pump layout on service station forecourts might help. How often do you have those 3-4 umps on the same umpp island - maybe putting all petrol/diesel on the same aisle or different sides would help, with big overhead 'Diesel >>' & 'Petrol >>' lane inidcators overhead.
Nah, the misfuellers would just go to the wrong island/aisle.
I think a header tank in the fuel system, with a sensor in might be an option. When it senses petrol, it could set the car alarm off or send out a "WRONG FUEL-bleep-WRONG FUEL-bleep etc..." message in a booming voice, so that everybody can see what a plonker one is.
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Like this you mean? Perhaps I didn't invent it then :-(
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=46...4
I wonder how many people have said they can't comprehend how anyone can misfuel and then done it themselves? I wouldn't dare to be so smug !
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I will continue to rely on my brain as I do when approaching junctions and traffic lights. And yes we have petrol and diesel cars!
Why do we consider devices to prevent mis-fueling more important (that is what is being discussed) than devices to prevent passing red lights - far more common around here, and far more dangerous!
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"Why do we consider devices to prevent mis-fueling more important (that is what is being discussed) than devices to prevent passing red lights - far more common around here, and far more dangerous!"
Hello Ian, I am the OP to this thread. Sure, start a thread about that if you like. But I put considerable effort effort into writing a detailed start to this thread about common rail and tech fueling solutions. Surely nothing wrong with that ?
With respect, why don`t you do the same?
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You come up against the problem of changing the installed base - and that is not going to happen when the worst thing is that it costs a few quid when we do it wrong.
My point is that should we not put effort into gadgets that are going to reduce accidents/injuries before we put it into reducing cost.
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A mechanical system that does not allow the smaller u/l nozzles to access the diesel filler neck would be much better that RFID chips etc because the latter would require modification to all pumps and until universally adopted would not be fool proof.
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> A mechanical system that does not allow the smaller u/l nozzles to access the diesel filler neck would be much better that RFID chips etc because the latter would require modification to all pumps and until universally adopted would not be fool proof.
Maybe not but an RFID-based system could work pretty well and be very easy to implement. The tag for the nozzle grip would cost pennies and could just be held on with a sticky pad, so fitted by an unskilled person in seconds. All it would have to do is to identify the contents of the pump. The oil companies and/or car makers could then sell a little receptor unit, powered by a 3V lithium battery that would last for years, to read the tag and flash a green LED if the fuel is as expected or a red one - and perhaps a beeper - if not. The receptor could fit inside the fuel flap; new cars could have it built in and drivers of older ones could simply buy one programmed to expect the right type of fuel.
It won't be universal for a while, of course, but it won't stop anyone without one - or at an untagged pump, or where the system has failed - from filling up as they do now, and it should still save all but the very dopiest of customers from an expensive mistake. My worry about a mechanical lockout is that if it failed, it might prevent the driver from filling up at all.
Or you could get the oil companies to print DIESEL on pumps and car makers to put DIESEL inside fuel flaps...or has that been tried already? ;-)
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>> would cost pennies and could just be held on with a sticky pad, so fitted by an unskilled person in seconds. All it would have to do is to identify the contents of the pump. >>
And if the u/s person fits it to the wrong pump?
Or if the stick pad fails and the chip falls off?
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And if the u/s person fits it to the wrong pump?
The motorist has a case against the garage for mislabelling.
Or if the stick pad fails and the chip falls off?
No-one is any worse off than they are today. You could design the tag into a collar to clip round the pump handle instead and colour-code it so that even a Person From Coventry (anyone who's visited Twycross Zoo will know what I mean - the type that sets the chimps looking at each other and saying "They keep US in cages!") could fit it to the right pump.
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Better if the filler neck simply wont accept the wrong nozzle.
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