I've seen that running on LPG could do Damage to your engine.
I do some 15/20k per year and thought of fitting LPG to my car.
Is the benifits from this low cost fuel worth the savings and what problems could be expected.
If as seen suggesting running half Gas/Petrol, then might as well run a diesel with the same fuel costs per year overall as Gas/Petrol.
Your Comments ??
|
Where do you get LPG? I've never seen a filling station selling it. I've only seen one place selling bio diesel.
--
L\'escargot.
|
|
All Morrisons petrol stations in the north sell LPG.
|
All Morrisons petrol stations in the north sell LPG.
I live about 30 miles from the nearest Morrisons.
--
L\'escargot.
|
|
|
|
Where do you get LPG?
www.go-autogas.com/
(You need to register before searching)
|
A large number of BP stations sell it. When I had the Range Rover I had no problems finding gas. As for damaging the engine - only if it is not installed correctly.
--
\"Nothing less than 8 cylinders will do\"
|
|
I agree with V8man, no problem if installed correctly. I had a Jeep Cherokee fitted and it ran faultlessly. Make sure you use an LPGA-approved installer and get the certificate. Inform your insurance company (didn't affect my premium) and keep the certificate safe as the insurance company will want to see it if you claim. Plenty of LPG stations around, you notice them when you use them.
|
|
|
|
Where do you get LPG? I've never seen a filling station selling it. I've only seen one place selling bio diesel.
I can think of at least four filling stations locally (Bristol and Bath). morrison sell either LPG or Bio Diesel down here
|
|
|
|
When installed correctly probably great, my installation has idling problems due to the cheapskate installers not buying new inley manifold gaskets, therefor air-leaks therefore some rough running, espescially at idle. Drawbacks are :
1) Doesn't take much training to be a 'certified' LPG installer so finding a mechanically competent one is harder than you think.
2) The reduced tank capacity. Mine is 55l doughnut in the spare wheel well. Can only fill up to around 80% od capacity(44l)
3) No spare wheel due to above
4) Reduced MPG. 31 on petrol and 24.5 on LPG(including petrol usage!)
5) Small range (250 miles) Due to 2) and 4)
6) Questions over mechanical damage - premature valve seat recession, so Flashlube needs to be added therefor increasing costs further.
7) Slow fill-up at the pump, and you look silly constantly pressing the button on the pump
8) The smell that lingers to you and your clothes when you release the filling hose.
9) Installation is usually > £1500 for a Sequential Injection system
10) Price of LPG can be £0.499 per litre, unless you live near a Morrisons which sells LPG for £0.399 per litre and give you points (equivalent of 1.5p per litre)
So, overall I would say BAD unless you want to buy my car, in which case it's very GOOD, cheap to run, blah, blah, blah!
|
BTW,
11) £60 for a service of LPG system every 6,000 miles otherwise warranty is invalidated.
|
Oh yes, and .....
most parts are made in ITALY!!!! If you are lucky,
Eastern Europe or Turkey/India if not!!!
|
I looked into it last year comparing a 1.8TD Mondeo and a converted 1.8 petrol equivalent doing 20,000 miles a year.Powershift had just ended, so it would have been down to me to bear the full conversion cost, and I calculated consumption from the official combined figures for both cars, deducting 20% from the petrol car's figure for running on LPG. A figure of 20% was mentioned by all three companies who provided the quotes for the conversion work.
The bottom line was that the annual fuel savings would take 5 years or 100,000 miles just to recoup the conversion cost (using the middle of the 3 quotes), less the additional purchase price of the diesel car over the petrol.
I assumed the residual value of a 7 year old 150k+ Mondeo 1.8 petrol with LPG, and a 1.8TD would be similar (i.e. next to nothing). Even the petrol engine's slightly longer service intervals (12,500 miles against 10,000 miles) were wiped out by the need to have the LPG system safety checked and serviced every 6,000 miles.
If you already drive a gas guzzler big distances, or cover 40k+ a year then I can see a point to LPG if you don't mind laying out £1500-£2000 and waiting a few years for a return. Other than that, it's nigh-on impossible to justify on cost grounds.
|
DP,
You didn't miss anything with the powershift grants, the people approved to be powershift fitters were few and far between and they would have installment fees twice (or more) the cost of what you could get it fitted for on the open market. Therefore the ordinary man saved nothing with the powershift grant and could actually end up spending more.
Powershift grants also were only available to new or under 1 year old vehicles, thus serving the industry (vauxhall etc) and fleets rather than the man on the street.
A conversion should cost no more than 1500 on an average saloon car (eg Mondeo) and can be got for about 800 - 900. As for service intervals of 6000 miles, I question that, my fitter recommended an annual check up and it was provided free of charge.
You do have to go through the sums as you did, which involve 3 - 4 basic criteria
Your annual mileage
Cost of installation
Cost of LPG (locally)
Cost of Unleaded
|
|
|
|
LPG is no problem if fitted correctly. Which IMO does not mean necessarily fitted by an LPGA approved installer (as nick said) LPGA approved installers are just as likely to be cowboys as anyone else (I know, I've witnessed it). As chuckie88 said it's not difficult to get training and LPGA approval, but it is costly, involves some questionable rules and is not mandatory, which has put some fitters off from joining, and some of those fitters might be the best fitters in your area.
The LPGA is basically a talking shop of fat cats who have decided to fatten themselves by persuading some insurance companies to believe that they are the only way to go. In reality all that is neccesary is for an installer to follow the LPGA's code of practice in regard to the installation, and this does not require LPGA membership.
But you should check your insurer's requirements in terms of whether they require an install certificate and in what form it should take. And if neccesary shop around for new insurance quotes.
|
|
Bear in mind that afaik the issuing of a conversion certificate can be done by anybody. All the certifier does is to certify that he has installed the system according to the instructions.
|
Got to drive an LPG Saab 9-3 yesterday as we're having an environment week here. Was impressed at how smooth the car seemed to run on LPG, and that there was absolutely no difference in performance.
Would possibly consider one in the future- although only concern for me would be having to fill up more frequently (have to do it every 4 days as it is).
The Saab also seemed to have quite a big flatspot in the lower revs (confirmed by sales rep). Was so big even asked the rep if the car was turbo'd as felt a little bit like turbo lag- was normally aspirated.
He did say Vauxhall will be introducing LPG Astras and Corsas soon.
Own preference would be greater push on Biodiesel.
|
|
|
>Bear in mind that afaik the issuing of a conversion certificate can be done by anybody.
>All the certifier does is to certify that he has installed the system according to the instructions.
It's a bit more complicated than that, yes any fitter can issue a certificate of installation - which may include the words (enforceable by trading standards to be true) Fitted in accordance with LPGA codes of practice. But only LPGA registered fitters can issue an LPGA approved certificate.
If you ask your insurance if they require a certificate and in what form, and they reply they require an LPGA approved fitters certificate. You can take your car to an LPGA approved fitter and ask him to inspect the car and issue a certificate. Most of them will do this.
However, there is a big failing here, in that LPGA fitters can ONLY be approved for systems they have specifically been on training courses for. i.e. if a fitter is trained on an "autogas" course he can only be approved by the LPGA to fit (and inspect) an "autogas" system. Or he may be trained on "Prins" so he can only fit (and inspect) Prins systems. Or he may be trained on "Leonardo" or "Bigas" or "Tartarini" If he wants to do multiple makes, he should get trained for multiple makes. I suspect this is not heavily enforced by the LPGA. because they do inspect other makes and issue certs for them. Which shows the rule of only being allowed to fit the make you are trained for to be not worth the paper it's written on. which brings into question the whole issue of "how safe" is an LPGA approved installer? or how unsafe can they be? Given that there is very little (if any) inspection (by LPGA) of works carried out.
|
Indeed, my car also has a flat spot at low revs (2000 rpm), which is worse on gas than it is on petrol.
Performance is however very much the same. I think it is important to mix between using petrol and LPG, and a lubricating kit is a must.
The liquid that I bought is called flashlube and it smells like petrol. It probably is petrol, but costs a lot for a bottle of petrol (£14). It is supposed to lasts about 10,000 miles they say.
As it costs circa. £14.00, I suppose I can buy 16 litres of petrol for this and run for about 100 miles.
Just thinking, with this device, is it better to pour optimax petrol into it and let it run quicker than it does already (from 10 drops per minute to 25 drops per minute). Or maybe those additives will do the same thing for less money?
Of course, thinking about it I wouldn't want to overfuel the cylinder/ valves as this can have dire consequences as well. I think however using petrol is a good idea as it cleans the casing as well if I overfill. And you know it is dirty as petrol is clear, and the flash lube isn't.
I think motoring is becoming a lot more complex than it used to be. CR diesel has issues, but returns good MPG, and computer technology is something I need to study more so I can get a clearer idea of what car is best. In the long run, I think motorbikes and scooters will be the most cost effective. A 125 can be bought for £1700, it pays itself back with
1. Free parking (for me this equates to at least £5 per day)
so for me it pays back in 1.3 years.
But what about bus travel? Well, because of London traffic, it would take an extra 30 minutes to get to work. If I calculate that in an hour I earn £8.71 gross, in a year it saves £1133.33, so effectively paid back in a year and a half.
2. Petrol.
Well, this is false economy. Over 12,000 miles, I have saved about £350.00 compared to my LPG car. Of course, I use my car for longer journeys so will give better MPG than it could in town. Of course, I haven?t yet worked this out on my spreadsheet records. Aren?t I lazy!
The only downside is that in London, drivers are aggressive. However, as I only travel through Fulham to Hammersmith daily, it really isn?t too bad once I change the way I think and become defensive in my riding. And I have the patience of a pope almost, which is a big must in the stressful world of work!
I?m sure someone will come along and say my argument is flawed, especially as it is biased. I still think I am pretty much right. In fact, I bet I could write a whole Economics dissertation on the motoring ? there really is so much there.
Anyway, apologies for my waffle ? hope someone finds it useful.
Greg
|
|
Free parking, and maybe congestion charge reduction too? But aren't you only able to get these because your car is a registered powershift car or sold as LPG from new? Most LPG conversions would therefore not qualify.
|
|
|
|
|
|
