HGVs and Coaches are banned from the outside lane on motorways.
I understood that this does NOT apply to 3 lane highways. e.g. the 3 lane A40 which runs from the M40 into London, even though this road is virtually motorway standard.
A pal thinks they are banned on this type of road.
Who is correct please?
BobH
|
|
They are not allowed on the third lane on any dual carriageway.
|
|
|
|
Checking my Ladybird book of Laws.
|
|
|
Tom,
Semantic point but isn't that a contradiction in terms: Dual=2?
BobH
|
|
Er, I think you misunderstand what a dual carriageway is, Bob. It's a road where the opposing traffic flows are divided by a solid barrier. Nothing to do with the number of lanes in either direction.
|
Tom - I've wondered long and hard about this since a year ago when I was stopped by a police dog handling vehicle for speeding on what I thought was a dual carriageway. Cutting a long story short, he was doing about 65mph, I - knowing it was a police vehicle - slipped past at about 70mph and he pulled me over. His view was that he was exceeding the 60mph speed limit and I overtook him. I pointed out that I was on a dual carriageway and therefore the limit was 70 not 60mph. "This is not a dual carriageway sir, it's a two lane highway and the speed limit is 60mph". I didn't argue or ask for additional explanation, (correctly) pleaded ignorance and he let me on my way with a flea in my ear.
Subsequent checking of the Highway Code has never really provided the answer as to what is - or more pertinently, what is not - a dual carriageway. Best I can do is suggest that a road with two lanes carrying traffic in the same direction is only a dual carriageway if there's a dual carriageway sign, as defined by the Highway Code. Anything else is a two lane highway and the standard national speed limit of 60mph applies.
Have I (and my friendly police dog handler) got this completely wrong or what?
Regards
Phil
|
It does not matter how many lanes there in either direction, Phil. If a road has a solid barrier (Armco, Paving, Fence, Grass Verge etc) separating the opposing traffic flows then it is a dual carriageway.
If the opposing traffic flows are seperated only by paint - white lines, chevrons or whatever then it is a single carriageway, even on a multi-lane road. I think there is quite a bit of confusion over this among drivers and there must be many who have speeding points because of this mistake.
|
Thanks Tom. Seems to me that you're saying that RoverCop (he was of course a dog handler and not a traffic cop) got it wrong?
I've found one (IAM related) site on the web that confirms your definition of a dual carriageway, but *nothing* on any of the DETR or other transport related government sites or in the Highway Code. Do you know where this definition is published? I'm just interested.
Cheers
Phil
|
|
You would probably have to plough through the fine print of the road traffic act to find anything on that, Phil. I am constantly having to explain to pupils what constitutes a dual carriageway and what doesn't, so I think confusion over this must be pretty widespread. The powers that be must assume that the difference between dual carriageways and single carriageways is self explanatory, which is why the Highway Code makes no reference to this.
|
|
|
|
Tom,
Sorry - you are correct on the Dual carriageway definition.
However let me give my reasoning why HGVs ARE allowed in the third lane. If we take the A40 going in to London.
From the M40 it becomes the A40 a 3 lane dual carriageway. The only difference initially is that the signs change from Blue(M40) to green(A40) but the exits and entrances are slip roads.
As you approach London, the 3 lane dual carriageway widens to 5 lanes for a few yards before traffic lights where you can turn right from the 2 outside lanes.
Clearly you must get into the outside lane at some point to be able to turn right. If your definition is correct when does it become legal for the HGV to move into the right hand lane?
I can think of many examples where a 3 lane dual carriageway allows a right turn at traffic lights - same question as above.
This is of huge importance as there is a pint riding on the outcome of this argument!!
BobH
|
I was bang on certain that I was correct, but what you say about right turns makes sense.
I'm working on it, watch this space!
|
|
|
|
|
You and your pal can settle on a draw, Bob. Trucks and buses are prohibited from using the right hand lane of a dual carriageway where the National Speed Limit is in force. On roads with a lower limit this would not apply, so presumably no 3 lane dual carriageway has provision for right turns. I'm 99% certain of the above, unless anybody knows otherwise.
|
|
All references in the above should have read THREE LANE dual carriageway.
|
|
|
|
Disagree - whilst it is clear that LGVs and PCVs are not permitted in the right hand lane of three lane motorways (thus permitting them to be in the right hand lane of two lane motorways) - I can see nothing that prevents them going into the right hand lane (or lane 3) of a dual carriageway of two or three lanes. My source here is not the Ladybird book but that much little used booklet the Highway Code rules 116 and 117 for A class roads and rule 239 for M ways.
I may be corrected by Stones (but my wife now hides the Office CD Rom when I bring it home for weekends) when I get to the Office on Monday.
|
Para's 116 and 117 in the HC are unclear to an extent. My belief is that the no heavy's in lane three only apply to National Speed Limit dual carraigeways, so trucks and coaches would be allowed to use this lane if the limit were lower. As for turning right, I cannot think of any 3 lane NSL dual carriageways where right turns are permitted.
However, I stand to be corrected as I would not back my belief with serious money. Incidently, I "Phoned a Friend" who drives a fire engine and he was not sure either.
Any truckers out there?
|
|
|
|
Motorways are termed 'Special Roads' and have various Orders made in respect of their use. The restriction on use of right hand or offside lane is contained in Regulation 12, Motorways Traffic (England & Wales) Regulations 1982 (There will be a similar order covering Scotland, N.I).
Applies to: Goods vehicle max laden weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes,
Passenger vehicle constructed to carry more than eight seated
passengers in addition to the driver and max unladen weight
exceeds 7.5 tonnes,
A motor vehicle drawing a trailer (Caravans?),
Vehicle which is a motor tractor, a light or heavy loco.
No such vehicle shall be driven, or moved, or stop or remain at rest on the right hand or offside lane of a length of carriageway which has three or more traffic lanes at any place where all the lanes are open for use by traffic proceeding in the same direction.
This prohibition does not apply when necessary for a vehicle to be driven to overtake a vehicle carrying an exceptional wide load or to prevent danger.
There is no mention of speed restriction exemption but there must be a provision for including this (not yet found) as going into Leeds on the M621 at the start of the 50 mph speed restriction signs, there are signs saying it is OK for HGV to use all lanes. Probably covered by an exemption Order.
None motorways there is no such similar blanket restriction, but that does stop
D of T/Local Authority making such a prohibition Order to cover local needs in respect of traffic flow/ accident black spots.
P.U. Any change since 1997?
Hope this helps Bob.
DVD
|
|
|
DVD,
Thanks but I am not certain it does clarify matters. I think we are agreed on the category of vehicle that is banned from the outside lane of a motorway, but I have difficulty with 'your' statement:-
As I said before I can think of many examples where a 3 lane dual carriageway allows a right turn at traffic lights. Now I accept that you could argue this doesn't meet "traffic proceeding in the same direction" rule you quote.
However in the case I quote of the A40 there must be 10 miles of 3 lane dual carriageway before you come to the junction where you can turn right. At what point does it become legal for the HGV to move into the outside lane? 200 yds? 1mile? 5 miles?
Tom's view on banned from the outside lane when the 70mph limit is in force makes sense in most cases; but not all.
It appears there is a lot of confusion over this.
BobH
|
|
|
|
Not sure about the A40 Bob, but a good reason why large vehicles are prohibited from using lane 3 on motorways is that it is about a foot narrower than lanes 1 and 2: 3.3 m wide as opposed to 3.6 m.
|
|
|
Bob
Could you be lumping both type of roads together for there is no right turning on a Motorway?
That mentioned under the Regs purely applies to Motorway i.e. to drive, move etc.
None Motorway, i.e. A40, three or more lane dual carriageways -I know of no such similar blanket restriction under Road Traffic Act, Road Traffic Regulation Act as that applying to Motorway unless, as I have said , a particular Order proscribing use of the offside lane has been made by D of T/Local Authority. I have never heard of one but the authority is there to introduce. Such a ban would be signed on approach and at?
DVD.
|
|
|
DVD,
Sorry if I am being thick but I understand you to be saying that HGVs ARE allowed in all 3 lanes of a dual carriage(not Motorways) regardless of the speed limit? (Unless there is a road sign preventing it.)
Bob
|
|
|
I think we are all agreed that HGV>7.5t, minbuses >8 seats, trailers etc etc are banned from the right hand lane in motorways of three lanes or more. Was not aware that this applies to 3+ lane non motorways also, but the day I stop learning about driving will be the day I give up.
All right then question number 23 from the Ladybird Book of Devil's Advocates.
Right what is the position where the motorway approaches a junction typically with another motorway. So you have lane 1 for left, lane 2 for left or straight on and lane 3 for straight on. Are the vehicles discussed allowed in lane 3 then?
Custom and practice suggests the answer to that is that drivers believe yes, but then its custom and practice for four vehicles to go through red on temporary lights @ road works.
|
|
|
Have we reached a conclusion on the original question?
Tom thinks they are banned when the NSL applies.
Dwight thinks Tom is wrong?
Flat in Fifth thinks they are banned at all times?
Does Bob get his free pint?
|
|
I will probably come across one of the local LGV instructors at some point next week, so if noone can come up with a difinative answer before then, I'll let Bob know whether his pint is safe or not.
|
|
|
|
Bob H and others.
Just to recap my position in all this:
Motorways.
HGV's etc are prohibited under Motorway Regs from using the offside lane of a 3 lane Motorway, UNLESS Sec of State under Reg 17 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 has made a relaxion Order to allow such use (M621 going into Leeds from start of 50mph restriction)
NON Motorway -including A roads to Motorway Standard.
HGV etc permitted in the third lane unless Secretary of State/Local Authority have made an Order prohibiting use. They have various powers to regulate traffic. Whilst I do not know of such a prohibition in being at the moment, there may well be somewhere.
Traffic Signs Regs 1994, Reg 4 (Interpretation):-
"Dual carriageway road" means a road which comprises a central reservation.
"Central reservation" means
a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two
carriageways, or
b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the
carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriagerway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particulat times only) by traffic moving in the other direction.
I hope you enjoy your pint Bob.
DVD
|
|
|
|
happens every day where the A303 and M3 join eastbound near Basingrad
|
|
|
DVD,
Thanks - have a virtual pint on me.
Bob
|
|
|
