I've had a new Zafira since January & I'm amazed just how good the build quality is. Feels very solid with perfect paint, shut lines, trim / panel fit with no faults at all in 10 months.
Agree, as I went to see one and the fold flat seats as I wished to rent it for a few days next week for my daughters wedding - but it was too small for our needs and the S Max is not yet avialable for rental so settled for the old Galaxy Zetec to move things around for the Friday and Saturday parties and then the main event on Sunday. The new Galaxy's build quality is great but and fold flat seats like Zafira, but not avialalbe for rental.
The more I read and write about this subject, the more I want to trade in the humble C Class for a Ford, but badge snobbery stops me from doing so
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I was wondering about this same point today. I was cleaning a BMW 120i and a Mini Cooper Conv', both top spec ones.
On the face of it, having poked around in the interiors of both cars one after the other, id say the Mini has the edge on both design and quality. The BMW felt especially low rent and it was wearing very quickly after only 15k on the clock.
I was very impressed with the interiors of a Mondeo Ghia X and some of the latest japanese offerings. My mums Hyundai Coupe is pretty nice for what is a budget priced car aswell.
I think the thing with german built cars, is we have come to have high expectations because during the 80's and early 90's, they were the benchmark, but now they are sadly slipping yet still asking the earth for decidedly average cars.
I think id have a Mondeo over anything german these days, although id prob put my money in japanese built cars still as they dont seem to have lost their redeeming feature of reliability while still managing to produce interesting and ever higher quality cars.
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Stunthhants
Re Hyundia
Never been in one, but they are building better looking cars all the time and give a FIVE year warranty. TEN years warranty in the USA. (10 years the last time we went there, 2005)
The 3 Series looks saprtan for the money.
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I quite agree - the latest Hyundai Coupe is actually quite handsome car and in red, number of kids who thought it was a Ferrari is hilarious.
The deal you get with these cars is outstanding.
My mums car, a V6 manual comes with 6-speed gearbox, usual air con, leather, elec windows/mirrors, cruise control and cd player, plus the 5 year warranty, plus she got 3 years free servicing, the dealer is great and nothing has gone wrong with it or fallen off in 16,000 miles and all this for £16,500 brand new. Thats what BMW drivers miss out on - any sense of value for money!
Oh and if that wasnt good enough, I watched a test drive with our very own Richard Hammond and even he liked it, much to his suprise if I recall.
It just goes to show, especially by how many of these cars you see around, that alot of people are starting to cotton on to how good these cars are and how short changed other car makers will leave them.
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I've yet to see a Hyundai Coupe with any rust on it. SWMBO would have had one except for the fact that (at 6ft3), I didn't have enough headroom.
We particularly like the quirky looks of the twin-headlight model of about 5 years ago.
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The paint quality is excellent - ive cleaned quite a few of the early cars and none of them had rust either, just laquer issues with the alloys is all I could fault on them, but the finish is different on teh newest ones.
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I've yet to see a Hyundai Coupe with any rust on it.
To be honest, when was the last time you saw a rotten Hyundai (>1995) full stop? The worst Accent/Lantra/Sonata I've seen had a tiny bit of brown (no bubbling) on the rear wheelarches, but most seem rust-free.
HJ in his review of the Accent says it is rust-prone, but I have yet to see evidence of this. Is it the underside? I asked my mechanic about this and he said that Hyundais don't rot. Dunno who to believe.
I didn't have enough headroom.
Same deal here. Head hitting the ceiling. Great pity.
Hyundais have been very well built for at least the last 5 years. The interiors were carp, but this is improving all the time and they are fast catching up to European levels (indeed IMO they've already surpassed some of the Japanese makes). It really is getting to the point where you'd be a fool to not at least consider Hyundai/Kia in some classes.
Mind you, the general standard of build quality across the board now is excellent, regardless of manufacturer. As they are getting better and better, the rationale for buying premium cars is getting less convincing.
When you get to the point where the worst part of a car is a hard plastic dashboard, you're not doing badly -- the vast majority of cars were plasticky up to the mid-90s.
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"The new Galaxy's build quality is great ..."
This vehicle is made in Portugal. I wonder if Ford product quality varies (as it did with VW's mark 4 Golf) depending on the factory ?
For example, is a German-made Focus or Fiesta screwed together better at Ford's Germany (Saarlouis/Cologne) or its plant in Spain (Valencia) ?
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Having switched from an Audi 100 to an MB W124 Coupé seven years ago, I felt at the time that the Audi was nearly as good as the MB, and in some respects better, in terms of build quality, and there was no doubt that the paintwork was superior (and that was comparing a 1989 Audi with a 1995 MB, before the corroding W210 E-Class arrived). My impression is that Audi have subsequently got even better and that MB certainly haven't.
An historical aside: my 1984 Capri 2.8i still feels like it was built in Cologne and not Dagenham, as indeed it was. Right from new it felt more solid that its two UK-built predecessors.
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Up to the end of the 1980s, I think German cars were probably the best quality - if you wanted a reliable car you bought a Merc , but at a high price.
The Japanese started to produce cars as good as the Germans (and probably better today) and this raised the bar for other european manufacturers.
Today, I think you pay a 25-50% premium for a German badge - near enough the same quality as a jap, but at a huge snob premium.
The question realy is, how much of your money are you preparred to spend to impress your mates and neighbours?
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"My impression is that Audi have subsequently got even better and that MB certainly haven't."
Could the difference also be based on where the car was built. Aren't some MB models in right hand drive layout built in South Africa. Whereas the same car as a LHD is built in Germany. I know for sure all RHD C-Class cars are built in the East London plant in South Africa but the LHD are built in Sindelfingen and Bremen, Germany.
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I know for sure all RHD C-Class cars are built in the East London plant in South Africa but the LHD are built in Sindelfingen and Bremen, Germany.
I thought that only saloons are made in SA?
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You could be right but we both agree there are MB's built in SA for the RHD market. Shouldn't be a difference because they only assemble the vehicles.
Even the Bentley Continental GT and Flying Spur aren't totally made in Crewe. They do hand built the engines (blocks VW supplied) but completed car bodies arrive from Germany via transporter. Loads of them arrive each night. Apprently the plan is to send components back on the once empty transporters so they can assemble Bentley's for other countries at the same plant that makes the Phaeton.
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Good points
Re the Obsidian black on our MB - the ruddy fox and family that live down the bottom of our garden and jump the massive gayes onto the drive and poo by the car and twice on it have caused sracth marks to the paint work.
The paint job on the C class w203 I have was an experient that went badly wrong i think - I've had the car washeds 2 times and there are swirl marks from the paid professional hand washes and that ruddy fox who has left and 2 foot scratch on the roof as it clibs over the car to and from our rear garden.
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"The new Galaxy's build quality is great ..." This vehicle is made in Portugal.
No the new Galaxy, S-MAX and the new Mondeo are made in Genk (Belgium). Over 50,000 S-MAX/Galaxies already built apparently. See:
media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=24341
The old Galaxy was made with the Sharan and Alhambra in a shared facility which I guess was Portugal based.
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"The new Galaxy's build quality is great ..." This vehicle is made in Portugal. I wonder if Ford product quality varies (as it did with VW's mark 4 Golf) depending on the factory ?
Likewise SA / German 3 Series and MB's, certainly in the early 2000's C-Class estates made in Germany were better than the saloons made in SA.
However having worked for a large multinational with production facilities in various countries I think it is a matter of culture, Ford seem to have established a great culture within their European operations, a pride in the product etc
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Totally agree re the SA build quality problems.
The Germans do it better in Germany and even with Fords as one other respected member stated.
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I think this is issue of the some cars just "showing age". 5 year old Audi, inside, will have a lot of trim that owners of 1 year old "cheap" Skoda will find instantly familiar. That's not because Audi doesn't have luxurious interiors anymore but because they let design to run too long and new products bridged the gap. However, sit inside mid range product, such as new Volvo S80 and I guarantee you won't mistake it for Zafira or Focus (especially low end ones - like LX with horrible ash grey hard elephant skin plastics everywhere).
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[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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Comparison between an Octavia and A4 is relevant, comparison between an S80 and a Focus is not! Nevertheless the Focus compares well in quality of plastics with the MkV Golf.
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Comparison between an Octavia and A4 is relevant, comparison between an S80 and a Focus is not! Nevertheless the Focus compares well in quality of plastics with the MkV Golf.
Why not - A4 vs Octavia is comparison of 40k executive class car to 16k hatchback. And so is comparison of S80 to Focus. Original poster asked about comparison of built quality of executive cars to modern everyday Fords or Vauxhalls, so I'm not sure why you insist we compare trim of two hatchbacks in the same class and price range....
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[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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A4, 40k - perhaps 0.5% of A4s sold are £40k!
The original poster asked about comparison of built quality of MB etc with Ford etc, not executive cars to Fords or Vauxhalls in general, therefore a Focus, Golf, A3, 1 Series comparison is relevant, as is perhaps Mondeo, A4, C-Class and C-Max, A-Class / S-Max, B-Class etc though not Focus to S80, that's like comparing a 1 Series with an A8 or an A3 with an XJ.
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The original poster asked about comparison of built quality of MB etc with Ford etc, not executive cars to Fords or Vauxhalls in general, therefore a Focus, Golf, A3, 1 Series comparison is relevant, as is perhaps Mondeo, A4, C-Class and C-Max, A-Class / S-Max, B-Class etc though not Focus to S80, that's like comparing a 1 Series with an A8 or an A3 with an XJ.
I'm not sure what the key to this logic is - a Benz vs a Ford is fine, A4 vs Octavia is fine, but Volvo S80 vs Focus is like 1 series vs XJ? Perhaps you see Volvo S80 in a different class than it really is? Audi A4 range starts at £20k, ends at 42k, Volvo S80 starts at £23, ends around £43k mark (therefore both are comparable). Meanwhile XJ starts at £40k ends at £75, A8 starts at £46k and goes all the way to £80k. They are not in the same class, not the same price range and most definitely - not the same quality expectations...
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[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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I'm not sure what the key to this logic is - a Benz vs a Ford is fine, A4 vs Octavia is fine, but Volvo S80 vs Focus is like 1 series vs XJ?
You mentioned S80 in comparison to Focus, all I did is point out that it is an irrelevant comparison, perhaps my other examples were rather extreme.
PS: Renault RS26 V8 is NOT a Nissan engine - va va voom...
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I have found a friend's 55-plate Focus C-Max to be very impressive regarding build quality. The interior and exterior seem to be really tightly built, and so far the car has been completely trouble-free.
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As I've posted on here before, this convergence in cars is inevitable. Over the last 10-15 years there has been tremendous consolidation of second and third-tier suppliers - so many vehicle manufacturers are sourcing parts from the same suppliers. Typically a VM will buy from 1/10th the number of suppliers compared with the early 90's. Increasingly the VM's are allowing suppliers to design and produce complete sub-assemblies. Companies like Ford truthfully design less and less of their cars with even engines and transmissions being designed by external consultancies and suppliers. Often it comes down to 'premium' makers specifying a component that is of a slightly higher quality or with more functionality - but that doesn't necessarily translate into better performance or reliability.
Manufacturing systems too have become more similar with the Japanese leading the way. Visit a few different car plants and you get used to seeing the same FANUC robots and similar track layouts. I think its getting harder for the 'premium' brands to sustain their pricing - which is why they put so much effort into image building, brand loyalty and creating a nice "customer experience" - fancy dealerships etc - the dealer playing a bigger part in the car-owning exprience. Personally I find it a bit cringe-inducing, rather like those American restaurants where the 'servers' introduce themselves and make strenuous enquiries about your health and what sort of a day you've had. Some dealerships now employ 'greeters' and all that nonsense.
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Modern vehicle build quality has improved in leaps and bounds in the last 10 years or so, but it's hardly surprising in view of the legislation now in force to ensure that vehicles' built-in safety levels meet ever rising standards.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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My 7 year old E46 coupe has covered just over 100K and is wearing very well, with just slight evidence of the miles starting to show on the driver's seat and that's about it.
Blue
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>>Totally agree re the SA build quality problems.
The Germans do it better in Germany and even with Fords as one other respected member stated.<<
All RHD 3 series are made in South Africa and they are some of the best quality cars you can buy, so I disagree that the Germans do it better.
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>>so many vehicle manufacturers are sourcing parts from the same suppliers.<<
This is true of most but not all car makers.
Alot of the Japanese companies make their own parts or set up companies to do it for them to the standard they demend. Toyota did this with denso. Toyota also have a factory to make their own catatlyst substrates.
Where most manufacturers will use bosch abs and fuel mgt systems Honda create their own - as they do exhaust systems among other parts.
It also really has alot to do with people's perception of build quality - to me it is duarbility and reliability and sorry to be repatitive but the Japs have the lead on this and unless they do something daft (which I would put my mortgage on them not doing) they will always be out in front.
As one Japanese CEO said, we are not worried about the competition as we are 20 years in front of them and while we continue to improve they cannot catch us up on reliability and duarability whilst maintaining the profit levels the Japs do.
When you read/listen to the whole speech it does not sound as arrogant as it does when I write it.
The basic message is that if they want to catch up in the short term the competition will have to spend too much for them to be profitable.
You only have to look at Lexus in the US as a case in point - from nothing they now sell more cars in the US than MB, BMW & Audi put together - that is in a market where quality and reliability is usually put before the badge.
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As one Japanese CEO said, we are not worried about the competition as we are 20 years in front of them and while we continue to improve they cannot catch us up on reliability and duarability whilst maintaining the profit levels the Japs do.
So why did Nissan need a hand out from Renault. likewise Mazda from Ford?
When it comes down to it the Japanese manufacturers that are finanicially strong are Toyota and Honda and they are only more profitable globaly at present than for instance GM, Daimler Chrysler or Ford because these three have, as they restructure to meet future market demands, astronomical US domestic social costs to bear.
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"Toyota did this with denso"
Denso is part of GM
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In What Cars 2005 reliability survey ( the most recent I could find quickly) Audi came third from bottom. ( Out of 30 manufacturers)
Saab was second from bottom and Land Rover last. Having said that, when you delve further into the survey the A4 was 9th most reliable model.
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>>when you delve further into the survey the A4 was 9th most reliable model.>>
...and the Skoda Octavia was more than likely to occupy its usual spot - in the top three...:-)
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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Interesting and well informed insights as usual, Aprilia, and not a little ironic that the reputation of MB main dealers has declined over the past ten years, not least since the disappearance of locally owned companies, regrouping, and more centralized control. Come to think of it, there are plenty who would also argue that the intrinsic quality of the cars has declined over the same period, the technical advances notwithstanding.
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"Toyota did this with denso" Denso is part of GM
No its not, you're thinking of Delphi - which is a spin-off from GM.
Most manufacturers (not just Japanese) have had these spin-off companies.
Toyota have spun off Aisan automatic transmission (used now on loads of cars, inc. GM and Volvo), Nissan have spun off JATCO (which subsequently took over Mitsubishi Diamondtronic). Renault took over Bendix's fuel injection business which then went to Siemens etc etc. Its quite complicated.
The Honda fuel injection system mentioned above as 'their own' (Honda PGMFI) actually has many items licensed from Bosch. Similarly Nissan ECCS fuel injection is a modified licensed version of Bosch LH-Jetronic.
Most Ford petrol engines are now of Japanese design (Yamaha or Mazda) and Ford automatic transmissions are now designed by ZF, and smaller GM transmissions are Japanese designed (Aisan Warner).
Then you get cars like the Daewoo Leganza auto, with an Australian-made GM-derived engine, a German-made ZF automatic transmission and Japanese-designed Korean-made electrical system.
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