Of course, the EMF value does increase with speed as the steel wheels are generally magnetised and thus produce EMF when rotating.
OK now we know you are as barking mad as the rest of them!
But you have found others who are like minded. I suggest the IOW may be suitable for conversion to safe haven.
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pmh (was peter)
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RE PETER'S 'SAFE HAVEN'
Hi ... told you I wasn't a techie. It's actually the metal strenthening cords that within the tyres that become magnetised rather than the wheels themselves. This is well documented. Anyway, I'm not out to prove anything here. Thanks for keeping an open mind on this!
Ferrari 308 - sounds like a brilliant idea - so long as it's RED!
Andrew
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>> Ferrari 308 with mechanical fuel injection (and alloy wheels), the best was the 308 GTS QV IIRC.
Nope, 308 GT4, four seats and carbs though equally irrellevant to OP no doubt.
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I'm not belittling the condition, I'm sure it is genuine. But I do just wonder whether it might be largely psychological, a sort of panic reaction to the knowledge of all that electrical trickery that you don't understand but are entirely dependent on? Hence you didn't suffer it in the Mondeo because you (mistakenly) believed it didn't have any. That, combined with the plasticy smell and possible feeling of being isolated from real air by all the ventilation system, filters, air con etc?
Unless you really intend going down the route of a restored classic (good idea, but there are other disadvantages) I'd say try and get a good, not too modern secondhand car, if possible from a trusted source like a relative, and build up some confidence that it really does work reliably, the electrical system isn't about to pack up.
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Thanks - it's healthy to be sceptical about such matters. As stated previously, I wouldn't entertain the idea of electro-sensitivity if I didn't have the condition. Yes, it could be all in the mind. I have met some odd 'hippy' people who profess to suffer from the same - and many 'normal', well-balanced people who quietly suffer in silence. Anyway, the symptoms are triggered by many other electronic devices outside of cars - it took me 2 years to make the 'connection'. The Mondeo does kick-out a lot less in the way of EMF than other vehicles - hence my need to replace it with something as basic. All those I now find are rot-boxes. My son (11) is now ashamed of travelling in my banger to school - the last of my worries!
Heh, if you think I'm mad I really don't mind. This has been really useful to me!
Andrew
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Cliff, I don't think it is psychological, but I don't think the mechanism is know, and there's an astounding amount of 'scientific' (ahem) nonsense about it out there. It had never occured to us that the HT system in the Bora was making my dad ill. It was only when he realised that he didn't get ill in my sisters 206 diesel or my Accord diesel that the penny dropped.
Also, we first noticed there was a problem when he was particularly ill and we had a power cut. Within 15 mins he felt fine, only to relapse again when the power came back on. Grounded shielding under the carpets gets rid of most of the problems in the house, but it is still an issue.
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Old style diesel VW Transporter with the engine in the back.
Handy for load lugging too, or buy a camper version.
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Anyone who is interested should look at
www.trifieldmeter.com/ (This is the technology that OP is using.)
this looks as a pretty good way of separating sick people from their money!
Let us ring back alchemists, ducking stools et al.
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pmh (was peter)
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Let us ring back alchemists, ducking stools et al.
Indeed; looking at the picture of the meter the 'E' field 'measurement' is set up to 1000V/m FSD, at 1000V/m I don't think I'd need an 180 dollar meter to tell me I was in the prescence of a strong electric field, that would easily light a striplight held in the hand methinks. Somehow I think a much more sophisticated and expensive tool would be needed to stand any chance of measuring the levels of EM fields generated by cars or any other electronic equipment sold since the Eurpoean EMC directive came into force on 1/1/92.
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RE THE TRIFIELD METER
It's pretty hopeless are measuring electric fields. However, this is very sensitive in respect of electro-magnetic fields with a range of 1 - 3 milligauss on the complete scale & 1 - 100 on a wider spectrum. So, it does have the flexibility to work in a limited environment if you ditch all the nonsense about ghost-hunting!! It is a mid-range piece of kit with limited capabilities. There is no other way of knowing whether you are in a strong EMF field beyond using an instrument such as this.
Anyway, once insults start to be traded on a thread I think that it's time to disappear. ES rules every aspect of my life but I myself have no axe to grind. Thank you to you who are able to think beyond the present narrow view of this area. This was appreciated.
Andrew
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If you're after an older, electrically simpler, car, how about one of the older Mercedes - a W123 saloon or similar?
They're simple and robust (check the car-by-car-breakdown to compare models and see which fits your needs best) - but an old MB in good condition ought to look more presentable than most old Mondeos/405s etc you'll find as you're more likely find a Mercedes that's been cared for by an enthusiast. Choose carefully, mind it well, and they certainly seem capable of racking up the miles.
Someone mentioned Skodas, but unless you go back to the Felicia (or earlier) they share VW mechanicals and electrics, so probably don't meet your requirement.
- Gromit
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THANKS GROMIT ... appreciated that!
Andrew
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A trifield meter?
Ah yes that well know verified, accurate and calibrated scientific instrument. I understand dousing rods are probably better calibrated, although the wet finger stuck up your botty is thought to be more reliable.
Its all poppycock and utter balderdsh when you have the audacity to try and suggest your meter registers less EMF under a pylon, then it does inside your wifes polo.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Please learn to read. I didn't say that I got a higher reading in my wife's car than under a pylon. EMF drops of dramatically with distance so a modern car will spin the needle of any EMF detector when fired-up.
Poppycock and balderdash - I think you should stick to talking about botties. Perhaps you understand these better.
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You learned that from the web too? I think it says somewhere on there that hitler is still alive. No doubt he is next door to you. After all the web says so.
When or how was your "meter" calibrated? to what standard and to what reference?
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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"EMF drops of dramatically with distance"
What about the emf being transmitted down the metal pylon legs? What about the effective radiated power of the generated signal? Do you know anything about reflection, propogation, and ducting?
"So a modern car will spin the needle of any EMF detector when fired-up."
Do you know anything about shielding and why car components are shielded? Faraday cage effects?
Tell you what - Have another 20 minutes on the web and come up with some half bitten theories about those as well from your quak sources.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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OK, enough of the arguing please. Discuss and disagree by all means (within the bounds of a motoring theme) but do so in a polite & civilised manner.
DD.
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how about a 306 turbo diesel? a pre' 98 model(not sure of exact date as there's such an odd crossover with the 306) it will use the same engine as your 405 diesel. the 306 doesn't tend to rust very much, and doesn't have particularly more electrics than the mondeo id imagine. also there generally simple to fix and cheap to run
chris
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"'. The Mondeo does kick-out a lot less in the way of EMF than other vehicles - hence my need to replace it with something as basic. All those I now find are rot-boxes. "
I think we may be on to something here. Web based research shows that these cars are well known rot boxes. The holes that are evident in the floor pan are spaced at critical intervals ( the corosion and spacing arising from the standing waves generated inside the body shell when the car is running ). When the corrosion is advanced to stage where the metal has been displaced, the holes function as a dielectric spacers and the resulting fields escape out of the car to the ground. More modern cars are generally galvanised and corrode significantly less, not developing holes at the required critical spacing. Hence the apparent allergy to modern cars.
There is a possible solution, using your advanced technology, determine the areas of concentrated standing waves in a particular modern model, and cut appropriate holes . Voila, a modern car with old characteristics. If you are lucky enough to have a sympathetic main dealer, ask to borrow a car for a longterm test drive and get the Black and Decker out. When you have proved the theory you can go back and make an offer.
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pmh (was peter)
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I assume this is a windup as the OP only registered yesterday.
If he is telling the truth, he cannot watch TV, operate a PC, go ANYWHERE within 10 miles of an airport (radar), use a microwave or an electric cooker, switch on a light, go into a shop with fluoresent lighting, would find airport scanners intolerable.
In fact he's trapped within walking distance of home which of course is miles away from pylons or electricity substations.
And he has not replied to comments on Faraday cages.. which are so OBVIOUS a solution.....
madf
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Well I was going to make a helpful, if obvious suggestion. Rather than trying to find a "low output" car, what about shielded clothing?
A quick google reveals: www.lessemf.com/personal.html
Although $64 plus shipping seems a lot for shielded pants and would buy a lot of Calvins, they may offer some relief.
I have found a (proper) scientific study undertaken at MIT which shows that an aluminium hat can actually amplify EMF signals at certain frequencies, so I wouldn't be tempted to do a cheapo bacofoil solution!
PST
If there's somethin' strange in your neighbourhood
Who ya gonna call...
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Dont forget tho, the home made baco foil hat has the advantage that the aliens cant read your thoughts.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Coincidentally, TVM, the MIT study was actually done to test the effectiveness of tin foil helmets against US Government mind reading...
people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/
But I guess the same applies to EMF :)
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Brilliant - absolutely brilliant! much better value than the baseball cap at $29.95 from www.lessemf.com/personal.html
Could start a whole new craze for Nova drivers.
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pmh (was peter)
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No - not a wind-up. I wasn't aware of this forum, which is why I'm new to this.
Heh ... I'd no idea this would generate such interest and hostility. Firstly, apologies for the botty remark - it was beneath me - no pun intended. However, I'm kind of bewildered by the aggression of the replies. It sort of threw me!
There are millions of sufferers of ES. Many are possibly just mad, but there is a sizeable minority for whom it is a real issue. The key to survival is to keep your exposure to a minumum. So, of course you can move around freely in built-up areas. The key is not to live, eat and work in an area with high emf levels. I moved to a rural area to escape my symptoms. I gave up my job and am now self-employed. Obviously, in a car, you're 'trapped' in a sea of emf. So, any way of reducing this would seem sensible. I don't pretend to understand this chapter and verse. If you've something as debilitating as this then you look for possible causes and solutions. Reducing my exposure to electrical devices has radically improved my symptoms. As such it is a sensible precaution. I have nothing else to work with.
Shout down the suggestion by all means. And, of course, the web is full of strange theories. However, as you would with any site, exercise your intelligence please and only look at those which carry some authority on the subject - I did offer a link. I've had the problem for four years and am used to scepticism. All I would ask is that you keep your minds open to the possibility that, in the same way people vary in their reaction from anything to peanuts to chemicals, a minority of people experience difficulties with certain frequencies of electricity. I've openly admitted that I would be he first to shout this down if I didn't experience this myself. So, I can't really blame anyone for doing the same.
Enough said, I think.
A
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"Obviously, in a car, you're 'trapped' in a sea of emf"
Now you see this is why I am being so hostile. This statement is simply not true. If there was a sea of EMF those same devices would simply not work becuase they would be affected by the sea of EMF.
If you were that sensitive to those levels of EMF present in the car, the huge amount (comparitvely) of EMF erupting from the PC and screen you are currently using to make these posts would make your head explode.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Debate sure, hostility .... I didn't see the point. Life's too short!
I'm sure you don't want me to continue with this ..... I think we've gone way off the remit of this site. However, I'll rapidly reply to your point as you clearly have a grounding in this area.
COMPUTER - it's two rooms away. It's connected by a long wire to an LCD screen which gives off way, way less EMF than a cathode ray effort. It affects me, but only after an hour or so. Broadband is all wired.
CAR - I think that a 'sea' of EMF is perhaps overstating this, but I wasn't expecting anyone to ask me to quantifiy my use of metaphors. I've hired loads of professional meters which seem to compare well with the Trifield at lower readings. It's worse than useless with electric fields, but does a reasonable job of identifying areas of EMF. As such, cars do vary wildly in their readings. My wife's modern car kicks in at about 6 milligaus. This increases with speed. My 'shed' of a Mondeo has virtually no reading beyond the initial start-up. One affects me, one doesn't. I've had about 10 cars in the last few years in an attempt to find one that works for me. As such, 6+ mg equates to a 'sea' for me. So, this with my other experiences of phones etc leads me to the assumption of EMF.
Of course, there are other issues at play beyond emf - radio frequencies etc. As indicated in my first posting, I'm fine with people ridiculing me and the issue. There is research (of which I'm part) into this whole area. Unfortunately, it can get hijacked by cranks crazy folk. Love the picts of the tin hats!
Anyway, there were some positive posts on this regarding cars - particularly the 306 and MERC. So, thanks to all.
Andrew
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Your LCD (while being less than a CRT) is radiating more EMF than your car electronics. You know whats generating the most EMF in your car? Your car radio. Thats the way it works you see.
Oh BTW, I used to be an EMF test engineer.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Not according to the many tests with the various meters indicated. - alternator, HT leads, starting relay etc must all kick-out more than the radio. But, we'll beg to differ.
Go and have a beer!!
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Yes as I said futher up the post where I mentioned the HT as the primary source. The starting relay only operates once.
You seemed to be fixated about the inside tho. No alternator or starting relay or HT in there Anway cars have ALWAYS had those, and they were far dirtier (in EMF terms) in those old days. It is true that more power is required in the car to power all these extra devices. However due to modern car electronics being just as affected by EMF as you are, the designers have to make all the devices and power supplies with much less EMF. Spikes cause problems as do fluctations. The DC supply needs to be clean.
You have to come to a conclusion that its modern car electronics that cause the emf that effects you. Just pointing out that car radios emit more RF than the modern car electronics. There is probably more EMF built up by your clothes rubbing on the seats, your shoes rubbing on the carpets. In fact the materials the car is made from is probably just as important.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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As you can't shield against EMF I was assuming that 99% of the source came from the engine bay anyway.
Thanks - your last post was useful!
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"As you can't shield against EMF"
Could you explain this please?
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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If it's HT generated EMF simple solution is to buy a diesel. No HT.
I apologise for doubting: I know that studies have shown "dowsing " for water works due to sensitivity to the earth's magnetic field.
madf
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Have you tried one of those plug in ionisers? It might be the differently charged ions that set you off. Worth a try as they're only a tenner :-)
I'd get an old classic with carbs. 10x more fun that these modern things anyway. You could even be suspectible only to certain makes of ECU. There are only a few makers out there so it might be worth touring round a few showrooms and doing a few tests. Keeping the windows open would discount the internal chemical smog theory. If your mrs can drive then let her take you round blindfolded so you can't tell whose make of car you're in and see whether you just have an allergy to VW ;-) make sure she drives though....at least you won't be able to see the salesman's strange looks when she turns up with a blindfolded husband!
The only way to settle what you're sensitive to or not is to do a controlled trial. If there are quite a number of people to claim they have the problem then it may be worth trying to find out if anyone would be interested in conducting a proper scientic study so at least ems sufferers would have vindication or find out they were just a litte bit bonkers instead :0)
teabelly
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Re shielding
My understanding of electro-magnetic fields is that there is little or nothing that these will not go through. You can buy something called numetal (think spelling correct) which, whilst not directly shielding you from these, would attract the EMF to itself ? thus resulting in a lower ambient reading.
A faraday cage is an option some sufferers have tried in their home environment ? although this wouldn?t shield from EMF & is impractical to employ in a car ? I think. This is my understanding ? not fact, gospel or creed. I don?t have a background in electrical engineering. If I had a firm grasp of the finer detail then I wouldn?t be asking for help.
For me, the connection between cause & effect is clear. However, I?m open-minded to all and everything. Believe me, there?s little I haven?t tried. And, yes, I have wasted a some real £££ on stuff which proved to be nothing less than useless. But, if you have a solitary condition such as this then you?ll try anything ? no matter how bizarre or strange.
The last few thoughts and comments have been of great use ? thanks. This thread has generated an unbelievable amount of interest.
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>>My understanding of electro-magnetic fields is that there is little or nothing that these will not go through. You can buy something called numetal (think spelling correct) which, whilst not directly shielding you from these, would attract the EMF to itself ? thus resulting in a lower ambient reading.
Electric fields are easy to stop : pretty much anything metallic in the path of the wave will attenuate / deflect it. Of course there's a bit more to it than that (waveguide cutoff frequency anyone? but if electric waves were difficult to stop microwave ovens would be very very dangerous things....
'numetal' is a kind of 'music' featured in 'Kerang!' magazine. 'Mumetal' which is indeed an effective shield against the magnetic component of EMF, however it is expensive and difficult to work with, I've used it occasionally in my day job, although in most cases the lid from 'Rover' biscuit tins was almost as effective, presumably due to the steel content.
faraday cage is an option some sufferers have tried in their home environment ? although this wouldn?t shield from EMF
A Faraday cage will shield against the electric field component of EMF - that's the whole point of the thing.
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all this typing. MUMETAL, not N ... Yes, mumetal has only a limited impact. Agree with all, re last posting: I've had good success at stopping electric fields at home - but not within a car.
Thanks!
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I may be only a burnt out old physics graduate but a lot of this smacks of an April fool.
The replies are all very sensible retorts to a premise which is Bad Science , as the Grauniad would have it.
Electricity and magnetism are all tied up so you may as well talk about magnetosensitivity.
So many of these www sites are peoples perceptions just like any 'alternative therapy'.
If it makes you feel better or bad that's nice or nasty for you- just don't expect other people to believe it without objective and independent and repeatable double blind tests.
Now cold fusion - that really is the way forward.
GeordieGuy - I hope that your life does get better some time. To quote someone, life contains real and imaginary parts.
--
I wasna fu but just had plenty.
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Science is surely an emerging discipline. The way in which we interact with the world around us is not fully understood. That?s not to argue that we should give credence to any crackpot theory and throw scientific certainties out of the window. As stated, the evidence for this is largely anecdotal. However, there are hundreds of thousands of people who report similar reactions to the use of electricity. Alas, this is not an April Fool. You all seem to be an educated lot so I respect your views. As I?m a stranger on here, this is what I do for a living www.wackyverse.com ? not that it will necessarily enlighten anyone to my overall sanity.
Thanks for the post.
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