|
Drop it into a lower gear when going downhill to allow it to rev higher whilst not under load. Let it rev higher, (preferably not with foot on the floor!), when joining motorways/leaving junctions. Worked a treat for my (manual) diesel.
|
Is it your engine or in a company car?
If yours, don't do it is my advice. I would want to change the oil after 500 miles to get rid of all the tiny little metal particles there WILL be in there!
If you use it, dont let it labour and don't over rev it. Do change gear as often as possible even if it means slowing down and speeding up. Avoid excessive time at any set speed/revs. Stop as suggested for coffees to allow engine to cool before continuing. Cooling down and then getting hot again is good for it. And CHECK oil level BEFORE starting off!
Not the best way to run an engine in if it is your wallet that is looking after it in the future!
|
If yours, don't do it is my advice. I would want to change the oil after 500 miles to get rid of all the tiny little metal particles there WILL be in there!
Huh? Gone are the days of changing the oil after 500 miles.
Changing the oil too early can have an adverse affect on an engine because it *can* then use oil at an alarming rate because the oil put in by the manufacturer hasn't been in long enough to allow the engine to bed in properly.
|
What a comment! Unbelievable.
I cant understand that at all.
|
I cant understand that at all.
A lot of manufacturers use, to put it loosely, a running in oil. Change it too early (for a fully synthetic oil) and the engine will never be run in properly - especially so in a petrol engine.
See HJ's FAQ No.9 for more details.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=44
|
Sorry but thats just written by some clever person without any technical back up. I will try and explain my comments.
Oil does not stop an engine bedding in. It merely lubricates it as it does so. Changining the oil will not make any difference to it bedding in, but will remove the metal particles there will be in the engine. Unless any technical person can prove to me that is not the case? I dont know of any engine manufacturer or oil supplier, or engine builder that would say don't change the oil!
Lets just take the piston rings in the bore for 1 example. The bores are not the same size and shape as the piston/rings. Thats why the rings are free to move to fit exactly. If they dont touch/seal then where does the compression come from? What stops the oil/compression mixing? (as in a worn engine)
If they do touch where does the metal (minute particles) go? They will wear until they form a perfect seal. All engines will wear the bore escpecially on the thrust side.
I make no gain from what anybody does with their engines but I strongly suggest changing the oil early to remove that potentially damaging metal from the oil.
If you have ever drained the oil from a new or rebuilt engine you will know the swarf I mean; there is enough to be seen.
As always on here many people know far better than others because they read more articles (not necesaarily by qualified people) and take it all as fact. Do as you wish, I merely try to help.
|
the article also says revving the engine at 4000 to 5000 k is ok?
Hmm, and its written by who exactly? How many people rev their engine to 5000k when it is run in? Doesn't seem particularly good advice to me!
|
Hmm, and its written by who exactly? How many people rev their engine to 5000k when it is run in? Doesn't seem particularly good advice to me!
Even my TDI gets spun up to 5000rpm occasionally...
|
I don't think I can drive down a NSL road without touching 5,000 revs!
|
|
Nothing wrong with giving any engine a good rev. Guilty of it too. But when running in?
|
Nothing wrong with giving any engine a good rev. Guilty of it too. But when running in?
A couple of mates used to work for hire car companies. The engines were thrashed from day one. Smoke bellowed from the engine bay where the laquer on the engine was scorced off with the heat. Yet many 1000's of miles later those engines were still going strong. So much so that one of my mates had no issues with purchasing the cars when the hire companies flogged them off for either himself or friends / family. And those cars still carried on going on strong for many many miles.
Re, your earlier comment about swarf, etc. Isn't that what the oil filter is for?
|
>>The engines were thrashed from day one>>
I'm well aware that modern engines (and lubricants) are far superior than a couple or more decades ago.
But my father, an engineer who always owned two wheels or four, always used to preach to me the basis that mechanical sympathy equals longevity.
That's why he and I, still a very young lad, used to regularly service his car or motorcycle (spent many an hour grinding in valves)
But he wasn't one to hang about on the roads in his day...:-)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
|
A mate's dad got a 1990 Cavalier 1.6 as a company car. Beat the living daylights out of it on day one (flat out from Sheffield to Oxford on the M1 basically with less than 10 miles on the clock). Hammered it every mile of its life. Bought if off the company (for peanuts) at 3 years old with about 120k on the clock. He kept it another three years and put another 30k on it and then gave it to my mate who took it up to 190k when it got rear ended by a van and written off. Still running beautifully on the original engine, used very little oil and sounded as sweet as anything.
Cheers
DP
|
No personal dissrespect meant here.
But if you are not sure of the potential damage running an engine in wrongly can do, should you (or others) be making such bold comments as good advice when somebody is asking for it?
I know its an open forum and all are welcome to make their comments. But if you were told to run the engine without coolant for the 1st 50 miles because someone said it was a good idea; would you? is it appropriate to make such comments without any real info to back it up?
|
I'm not offering it as good advice, just recounting a true story where I have good knowledge of the individuals and the car concerned. Whether its high mileage was down to pot luck, the individual engine or the treatment it had, I have no idea and would much less claim to know. But I don't believe I stated anywhere that this is what I would do, or recommend others to do.
It is a fact though that many manufacturers no longer specify a running-in period or specific instructions for doing so. Surely the correct answer to this question is read the manual, and follow the maker's instructions. They are after all the best people to inform us of the correct practice on a given engine.
|
|
fair comment, wasnt actually meant at your comment directly, More to Dynamic Dave; but still no dissrespect meant.
|
|
No worries. None taken. :-)
|
I'm not offering it as good advice,
Nor I. But whether the car is brand new, or second hand, you have no idea how it was previously treated prior to taking ownership.
Brand new cars are subject to start stop situations when they leave the end of the production line. When put on car transporters, the cars on the top row must suffer loading stress and high revs on the engine to get them up the ramp. When they eventually reach their destination, they are subject to further start stop situations where they are often shuffled around the forecourt or display room window. And then there's the occasional test drive; followed by the dealer possibly reseting the odometer (if less than a certain mileage has been covered) so that the eventual buyer has no idea that it may have already covered a few miles beforehand.
And as for second hand....
|
They do suffer from this by the nature of having to be moved. Agreed.
My point is, change the oil and get rid of the damaging particles inside it. And on another aside, the faq you pointed to was for petrol engine not diesel engine. But my comments stay the same.
The Op was asking for what to do with new diesel engine and now has a complicated task of sorting the wheat from the chaff to decide? A lot of misinformation and comments to say the least imo.
My best advice still stands; Don't do it if its your wallet that is going to maintain the car in the future!
|
The Op was asking for what to do with new diesel engine and now has a complicated task of sorting the wheat from the chaff to decide? A lot of misinformation and comments to say the least imo.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, the handbook *should* advise what to do. That may not be the best course of action, but I still think changing the oil at 500 miles is an overkill.
If anything, a motorway journey will put less stress on the engine. Provided of course revs are varied and everything else mentioned above, with regard to running in the engine, are taken into consideration.
|
A motorway trip is probably the worst way to run in an engine, but agreed its the change of revs often that will make the difference. Change of engine temperature would help a lot though.
Not sure why changing the oil is an overkill though? It's the metal particles in the oil that I suggest should be removed as early as practical.
Nobody has yet come up with any real reason why it should not be done; just hearsay without I may add no technical reasoning.
As to the OP. its your engine and your choice.
|
And then there's the occasional test drive; followed by the dealer possibly reseting the odometer (if less than a certain mileage has been covered) so that the eventual buyer has no idea that it may have already covered a few miles beforehand.
:-o If I bought a brand new car I wouldn't expect it to have been test driven by other people! I feel guilty now from one of the test drives I had. It was a brand new car, and it got murdered, the salesman murdered it before me though. I starting to go off 'new' cars now, there isn't really much of a benefit if they aren't really new.
|
>>there isn't really much of a benefit if they aren't really new>>
It would most likely be sold as a demonstrator model - most of these are also salesmen's personal transport after hours.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
|
|
Well now, we all know what the chances are of me changing the oil in an engine before its drunk the first lot, but I've wondered about advice which says don't change the engine oil but do change the gearbox oil, where the mechanical wear is cited in both cases. I can understand the need for wear, but surely the wear of the mechanical parts rubbing together is what you want, not the swarf getting in between the parts, never mind clogging stuff up.
I guess the oil filter will catch it, but presumably not all an dnot straight away.
Also, 5,000 revs does seem a hell of a target during running in.
>>as the misfire this causes can damage the catalytic converter matrix
I've often worried about this as well, since doesn't the rev limiter stop the fuel. The warning would be appropriate if it interrupted the spark, allowing unburned fuel through, but I'm not sure that's the case.
|
The oil filter does help but........
they are a bypass type and not full flow so it can be long time before particles get to it. damage cud be done by then. How small a particle the filter will stop too is a problem. But even if its small it can still damage.
|
|
|
My view is that running in should be done by starting as you mean to go on - i.e., not doing anything different during the running in period.
My logic fof this recommendation is that the local temperature and mechanical loading, hence the size and shape of different parts of the engine varies under different conditions. So, if you want to obtain a good piston to bore seal while the vehicle spends the majority of its life doing 80 on the motorway, run the engine in at 80 on the motorway!
Or, put another way, don't bother doing anything special or sluggish during running in. Obviously, if your manual says otherwise, follow your manual - my suggestions don't carry a 3 year warranty!
This idea is based on my experience of running in hydraulic motors - if you run them in using "off design" speeds, loads, and pressures, they perform poorly when operating "on design". The comparison between hydraulic motors and engines is reasonable becasue in both cases you are trying to match components to produce the best seal possible.
The logic for changing the gearbox oil is that on many cars, the gearbox oil isn't either filtered or changed by routine servicing, so one change early in its life will get rid of lots of running in swarf. In an engine, of course, there will be both filtering and some changes.
Engines have been stripped at reasonable mileage and the bores haven't run in properly (some Vauxhall engines are really bad for this 1.6 Ecotecs for example). In these cases, more aggressive running in, and extended oil change intervals would have helped.
Oil filters in cars are full flow - until they become blocked, when they are by-passed by a relief valve. Some larger diesels do have by-pass filters fitted too, which are remove much finer particles. Oil filters are specified to protect the engine - i.e., they will remove particles of damaging size (i.e., those comparable with operational minimum bearing clearances)
Compression doesn't rely on a perfect seal - it's a race between the compression process, and the leakage process - the pressures we read during compression testing would change if we could crank the engine at different speeds, because at slow speeds, the leakage process gets more time to allow pressure loss.
Number_Cruncher
|
Sorry but car oil filtration is of by pass type unless you can point out a few exceptions? I don't personally know of any full flow type.
Compression relies on a seal, albeit not perfect. To get a seal means items touchoing. Items touching = wear.
How would extended oil change improve running in of ecotec engine? I would have suggested a different oil to run it in on would be better?
I don't disagree with your philosophy of running it as to how you would use it in future. Not necesarily ideal but practical. It's not how I would though.
|
>>Sorry but car oil filtration is of by pass type...
I'm sure you believe that, but I don't think it makes it right. Most car engine oil filters are full flow - really! There are some odd exceptions, Bedford Midi diesels used to have a normal full flow filter, *and* a bypass filter through which the oil passed much more slowly.
Compression relies on more air being compressed than leaking away - i.e., if you move the piston very very quickly, you don't need a seal at all, just a small clearance. Obviously, you get better compression with a better seal. Touching need not equal wear, if you can arrange for there to be a wedge of oil between ring and bore.
Different running in oil for Ecotecs probably would have been a good idea, but, by the time this was realised, it was already too late, and lots of Ecotecs had a nice thirst for oil.
Number_Cruncher
|
Sory, we disagree. By pass filters and by pass filtration system is in place on every major car that I know of.
Modern engines don't carry enough oil for one reason, to be full flow type.
|
>>By pass filters and by pass filtration system is in place on every major car....
It's possible that we are at crossed purposes - I'll explain what I mean by full-flow, and then we can see where our difference of opinion lies.
I mean that all the oil from the oil pump passes along the gallery and through the oil filter - there isn't any other route for the oil to follow other than via the pressure relief valve back to the sump. If, however, the filter becomes blocked, it has a by-pass relief valve, and un-filtered oil can reach the engine.
How does this differ from your understanding of engine lubrication?
Number_Cruncher
|
Ok we may be on different understanding; but my version is.
On full flow lubrication system, all the oil will flow through the filter on its way round the lubrication circuit.
On a car it is a bypass system where only some of the oil actually reaches the filter on any circuit of flow.
Maybe where we differ is that all the oil that goes to the filter is filtered, but not all of the oil in the engine hits that filter and can actually take a considerable amount of time to reach it.
Obviously on a full flow system, there is a large sump of oil that is forced through the filter and engine before returning for its next circuit.
So the result is unfiltered oil carrying debris in the engine.
On HGV vehicles (most) as you probably know they use 2 filters, full flow and bypass, to maximise oil and engine life.
|
I've just checked a few sources (it pains me to make reference to a Haynes manual!)
In my Escort Haynes manual;
1) the HCS (pushrod) engine has a full flow oil filter, and a neat diagram showing one oil gallery leaving the noil pump routed to the filter
2) the CVH engine has a full flow oil filter, and another neat diagram showing only one pipe from the oil pump to the filter - i.e. all the oil is filtered
3) the zetec engine is described as having a full flow oil filter
In the Bosch automotive handbook, the Opel CIH engine is shown as having a full-flow oil filter
The Bosch handbook goes on to say;
"It is recommended that such (bypass) filters are used only in conjunction with full flow filters"
In every source I have checked, full-flow filters are specified - I can't imagine this is a co-incidence - I have no reason to doubt that by far the majority of car engines are filtered using full-flow filters.
The only by-pass filter application I have worked on in a smallish engine is in the Bedford Midi, as mentioned above, and that was in conjunction with a full-flow type.
Please go and have a nosy at some section drawings of engines - there isn't anywhere else for oil to go after the pump but the filter (unless the relief valve is open, and the oil gets dumped back in the sump)
Number_Cruncher
|
|
May I suggest you understand engine a little better than a manual before you insult knowledge?
|
|
ever heard of dry sumps etc? thats full flow, where all oil is filtered on evey circuit of engine!
|
I'm confused - All I have done is to disagree with you, and to quote a couple of independant sources of information, and I'm being accused of insulting you. If I have insulted you (although I'm not sure how), then please accept that I did not intend to do so, and apologize.
I can understand you being dismissive of Haynes manuals - they sometimes do have the odd typo, or difference in spec between the car they strip down, and the ones that are on the streets, but I don't think the Bosch Automotive handbook can be so lightly brushed aside.
I quote these books **not** because I don't have any other source of knowledge and experience, I quote them because it is something that anyone can check on, i.e., it is completely transparent and open to anyone.
And, yes, I have heard of dry sump systems, but they aren't really what we were discussing here.
Number_Cruncher
|
My money's on Number Cruncher - sorry robcars.
I don't take engines to bits for a living but I have been going round under the impression that virtually all modern (certainly 1960s on) cars use full flow filtration. Only if the pressure becomes too high (blocked filter, or maybe cold thick oil) will the relief valve allow unfiltered oil to the bearings, which is clearly better than being starved of oil. Where bypass filters are used it is to remove smaller particles, and would have to be unfeasibly large to cope with full flow. The ideal therefore is to have both - the bypass to keep the oil clean, and the full flow to make sure no bigger lumps that have detached can get to the bearings by bypassing the first filter.
Either on its own is a compromise. Both is presumably what allows HGVs to run for many tens of thousands of miles on the same oil - a fact conveniently overlooked by those who use this as an argument for long intervals on cars.
|
May I suggest you understand engine a little better than a manual before you insult knowledge?
Robcars, contrary to your own beliefs, some of what you say isn't gospel, chapter and verse. People are as welcome to their opinions and views, as you are yours. Please respect that without resorting to throwing your toys from the pram just because they differ from your own views and beliefs.
DD.
|
My last comment.
All the oil is not made to go through the filter. Admittedly all oil that is picked up goes via the filter. What happens to rest (unfiltered)? It sits in the sump where the metal particles can (and have been known to) cause damage to bores, crank etc.
Car oil filtraiton as I said before is of a bypass type. The oil capacity isnt big enough to cope with full flow. The full flow filter fitted simply means that all oil that goes through the pick up gets filtered.
However we all digress from the original point; and I still maintain that if you are the owner of the engine who is carrying the wallet to maintain it then you would be well advised to drain the oil and renew with a new filter at approx 500 miles. There is no reason not to ! And there is a reason to do so!
|
|
|
|
|
