It's good to see such a reasoned and informed debate, with the apparent underlying wish for Jaguar to succeed.
It's a great shame that the general public allow themselves to be swayed so easily by 'arm chair critics' and 'clever dicks' because i'm convinced that does a lot for some of the lost sales.
My wife's diesel X Type estate, is in my opinion a fantastic car. I'm not saying that a BMW 3 series isn't 'top dollar' and would never criticise someone for having one, but we didn't want that. The British element i.e heritage, badge, built in this country by British workers meant a lot.... but if i could have a pound for every sneering sod who has 'informed' me that the X Type is really a Mondeo, i'd be fairly well off by now.
Who cares about the underpinnings as the Mondeo is a very capable car, in fact in some area it beats the X Type anyway......so i really don't mind that being the basis for our car. Why not see the X type for what it is i.e for us it's all the leather/ wood which Jag do so well and the Prestige element in that sector, with all the toys attached. It is a very capable,able and in my opinon desirable car.
My S Type has the underpinnings of an American Lincoln, but because Joe public has generally not been told of this no one has sneered about it....... does the Lincoln element make it any less capable as a car...nope, everthying has been put together over here in a completely different fashion.
The above two examples have meant that Jaguar provided two extra models to its' range, which otherwise would not have been there.... why can't people accept that, particularly when all the other manufactures do it ...as they'd be mad not to.
I do agree though that perhaps the X Type as a concept has failed, for the reasons stated above i.e stick to the top end of the market and let Volvo have the middle and upper middle.
Thank you for the informative previous comments and please keep them coming.
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Strangely, people don't seem to be quite so snobby about Volvo. Most people don't seem to mind or care that newer Volvo models are shared platforms with Ford.
I agree though, nothing wrong with the X-type as a car, but some people will never see past the Ford from whence it came, excellent car or not.
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Strangely, people don't seem to be quite so snobby about Volvo. Most people don't seem to mind or care that newer Volvo models are shared platforms with Ford.
But isn't that because Volvo have always (IMO) straddled the middle ground very successfully and to a certain degree have a "classlessness" about them. Whereas Jaguar, with their history and pedigree have always been seen as a luxury marque. That's why I think the X-type didn't succeed, in the same way as if Volvo made a £60k S-class competitor, it probably wouldn't do that well.
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Well I'd be surprised to see Land Rover go. To be honest I'd be surprised if they got rid of any of them. Ford have spent so much in investment terms to bring those two companies to the top producing excellent cars, surely it wouldn't be a financially-prudent move? And if they do then the new buyer will probably get a very good deal indeed...
And aren't the PAG a bit too inter-twined at the moment to separate? I mean a strong reason for the Ford-PSA tie-up was to provide Jaguar and Land Rover with up-to-the-minute diesel engines - there are no Ford, Volvo or Aston Martin models using the 2.2 170 and 2.7v6 diesels...
As I've said, they need to invest just a little more in making Jaguar a fully-fledged sports arm and kill off the X-type, leaving such things to Volvo. I'm aware as it's best selling model it's likely to mean job cuts, but surely this is better than than it potentially going the way of MG Rover.
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No job cuts required. Land Rover will be making the next Freelander at Halewood, so the factory should be quite safe. They don't need the X-type there.
Land Rover employees at Solihull saw the move of the Freelander as a slap in the face. Wrong. It was a vote of confidence for the Halewood factory that Ford don't want to shut down, especially since they invested so much to get the standard up to Jaguar levels. If there's no X-type anymore then Ford have to move something else there if they want to make value of the investment so far...
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Jaguar car co for sale?
henry k - i presume that your original post is lifted from some news article (in which case if it is copyright, i think it should be attributed to the author).
Well I'd be surprised to see Land Rover go. To be honest I'd be surprised if they got rid of any of them
y2k+4 - to quote from
www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/20...l
" ..... Bill Ford Junior, the family scion who runs the carmaker, is trying to turn the company around. He has closed 14 plants and cut up to 30,000 factory jobs in an effort to strip out excess capacity and reduce costs, but Ford still lost $123m in the past quarter, when analysts had expected a return to profit, largely due to a dismal showing from the Premier Automotive Group - the Ford division that includes Jaguar, Aston Martin, Volvo and Land Rover.
"I am encouraged by what has been going on behind the scenes," Mr Ford said.
"But the external factors are not going to get any easier, which means we need to go f***her and faster." He added: "I am not patient. Nothing is off the table in terms of any of our entities."........ "
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it seems the site's swear filter objects to the word " f a r t h e r " as used by mr. ford !
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It'll be because of the preceeding bit of "her" in the word...lol I'm aware of what he said but apparently all the experts predict he'll put it up for sale.
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Jaguar's unique selling point years ago was that they were carefully engineered to a price but this was reflected in what was charged for them at the dealer's - their perceived value for money was nigh on unbeatable. The E Type against the Aston Martin DB4 was an excellent example of this.
I think things started to go wrong when the management at Jaguar (naming no names) decided the snob value of the marque was high and therefore, from then on, they could charge what they thought they could get away with and we were into the era of the 40k XJS etc.
Since then the company has found itself wrongly positioned in an increasingly competitive marketplace.
I am not deliberately knocking the company - it all saddens me because I had a Mk 2 myself until not long ago and have an affection for the marque in spite of the often expensive reality of owning a car engineered in the way that Jaguars used to be.
Sadly, the name seems to be nothing but a brand now and probably sells more cufflinks than cars.
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And aren't the PAG a bit too inter-twined at the moment to separate? I mean a strong reason for the Ford-PSA tie-up was to provide Jaguar and Land Rover with up-to-the-minute diesel engines - there are no Ford, Volvo or Aston Martin models using the 2.2 170 and 2.7v6 diesels...
It seems that the 2007 Mondeo will use the 2.2 170 (and perhaps the 2.7 V6) as I guess will the S-Max and Galaxy, it would perhaps also make sence for this engine to go in the Focus because it must be similar in instalation terms to the 2.0 Ford/PSA unit however the Focus based S40/V50 use the volvo 5cyl diesel so I wonder it we will se a Focus ST TDCi with the Volvo engine. Jaguar applications will clearly depend on the design heritage of the platform. Volvos all currently make good use of the 5cyl 2.5 180 however it is true to say that this is not a particulary torquey engine for it's size. Cant imagine diesel Aston in the short term however if so the 3.6 V8 would surely be the option.
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Jaguar are a carmaker living on past glories.
It has made no profits for 10 yers.
I doubt if ther are lots of thrusting young executives under 40 wanting to buy one.
(and its UK car buyers must surely be company car drivers).
Its flagship XJ6 model is based on a model styling introduced in 1969.
An old car for old men.
I might be seen dead in one if they were used as hearses.. but I forget: no estate car version.
Product planning and placement? forget it.. ( and a disastrous foray into F1 proves they has NO idea..)
Deserves to die.
As far as LR is concerned, what is Quality Control?
madf
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madf,
Are you in a bad mood? Has Mrs madf declined your conjugal rights?
If you don't like jaguar, then fair enough, we're all entitled to our own views, but "deserves to die" is a tad strong.
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Glad someone said something. And I thought Land Rover quality control was now very good with the new Disco/Range Rovers?
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www.just-auto.com/article.aspx?ID=88584&lk=dm
comment here - surprised how low x-type sales have been. But then they seem quite small even if they are mondeo based. And I agree the jag styling is too old.
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But then style always divides opinion doesn't it? If it lacks identity it's too bland. If it has identity someone will always dislike it. It's just the way of things.
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A Jaguar X type with manual rear windows says it all really, Built down to a price.
Even the basic Mondeo that the X type is based on has 4 electric windows as standard with remote total close function.
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When it was launched, Jaguar said that the first-generation X-type was deliberately styled to be fairly conservative so that buyers who would otherwise opt for a C class or 3 series would recognise it as a Jaguar - hence the "mini-XJ" look. The promise was that future small Jags would be more daring in their looks.
I've always admired Jaguars, and long hankered after one. But I was disappointed by the X-type when it came out. The snag: a 2 litre X-type estate with leather, heated seats, air con, metallic paint and alloys (all cost options) costs just shy of ?50,000 in Ireland. The same spec on a Subaru Forester Adventurer (the other car I hanker after) costs ?37,000, or ?35,000 on a Passat/Vectra/Mondeo. There's no compelling reason to buy a X-type over any of these three - except the badge on the nose. And there won't be, IMHO, until Jaguar take steps to make their cars unique again.
I also suspect that had the X-type come before the Mondeo, there'd have been less snobbery. I guess the S type didn't suffer the same fate because, though it has much in common with the Lincoln LS, Lincoln is still percieved as a premium marque so the inference is that the platform was built to a higher standard. That's not necessarily true, but if head ruled heart on such matters there'd be no Jaguars or Volvos sold at all - Joe Public would simply buy effectively the same car with a blue oval on the front.
But I do hope Jaguar isn't left to die - they could build such wonderful cars, if only they got their priorities straight.
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But then style always divides opinion doesn't it? If it lacks identity it's too bland. If it has identity someone will always dislike it. It's just the way of things.
Yes, but if nobody likes them - and it would seem from sales figures that that is the case - they are a failure.
I still think the packaging is poor, for the external size of the cars there is very little room in them. The only people I know who buy jags are people who have bought them for years. Often thinking that they are buying british.
And the delay in having diesels is silly.
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"If you don't like jaguar, then fair enough, we're all entitled to our own views, but "deserves to die" is a tad strong"
No profits, massive capital injections, sales then halve.
That's a definition of a carp business, badly run, with no economic logic for its continued survival.
Renault apparently looked at it and walked away.
I doubt it will need less than £1.5 Billion investment in next 5 years to survive with NO guarantee of profitability.
Times are hard in the car industry. Jaguar has been poorly for the past 20 years.
Mercy killing is likely: It is currently bleeding ford to death through cash outflows..
Every busines plan in the past 10 years has been an ABJECT failure.
I reckon Porsche will produce more cars - sorry SELL more cars.
I can see no reason on business grounds for its survival.
madf
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Ford needs a prestige model......... fair enough Aston Martin is, but you'd have a job getting more than 2 people in one of them.
What else would be the the Executive/Luxury choice in the Ford stable? I for one wouldn't fancy the American offerings and I suspect a great chunk of Europe wouldn't either. Look at the spending power of the European economies.
The newer XJ is a very capable car especially the diesel one.
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Perhaps the time has come to bury the Jaguar name.
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What would be the point in that...... the name is ok........ it's some of the issues surrounding the model line up or specifics with the cars or perceptions about the cars that seems to be the problem.
Names can (apparently) mean a lot, look at Daewoo/Chevrolet....... it wouldn't fool me, but the marketing people obviously think it will fool some.
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>>it wouldn't fool me, but the marketing people obviously think it will fool some.
You only have to fool some of the people, some of the time, to make a sale!
--
Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
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Chevrolet?
It might have been a good idea to change the shape of the cars too. Poo in a bag or poo in a box, it still smells like poo
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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