I'm not sure of the legal weight, but in either Germany or Austria (can't remember which) there are road signs at, for example, traffic lights and railways crossings asking/telling you to switch off your engine if stopped for more than a specific time (one or two minutes, once again memory fails me!).>>
See:
tinyurl.com/pone3
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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Citroen Stop and Start system - engine automatically shuts down when braking at speeds below 6kph, then "instantaneously" restarts itself when required. Citroen claims it can reduce fuel consumption by up to 10%. www.citroen.com/CWW/en-US/TECHNOLOGIES/ENVIRONMENT.../
Makes me wonder about long term reliability of systems like these. Imagine in 5 years time you're in busy traffic behind an old stop/start car which has been neglected and inadequately serviced. It stops itself at traffic lights, but then tries and fails to restart itself?
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From cold, you can't tell me that system is good for the engine...or any temperature in fact. IC engines weren't designed for it.
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From cold, you can't tell me that system is good for the engine...or any temperature in fact. IC engines weren't designed for it.
Agreed. Not to mention the battery. I wonder how many times could you start and stop a typical engine (particularly a diesel) in an hour before the battery quits on you?
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Agreed. Not to mention the battery. I wonder how many times could you start and stop a typical engine (particularly a diesel) in an hour before the battery quits on you?
BMW is to introduce this system next year.
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I was just wondering what piece of legislation allows the councils to do this?
I must admit, If im sitting at a set of traffic lights which I know will be three minutes or more for example, I do switch my engine off, but not for enviromental reasons, its just a habit!
Mind you, i wouldnt have done it with my old Reliant - there was never any telling, esp when cold, if it would fire up instantly again or if I would be left sitting in the middle of the road hoping it will catch before someone honks their horn at me!
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Wouldn't do it in a diesel. Efficient anyway, and I've heard that stop/starting places most strain on the timing belt and it's components.
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If the councils are going to do this, then are they going to fine themselves for not ensuring that traffic flows freely through the areas they control? The amount of fuel wasted by badly phased traffic lights, speed humps, parking on through routes and causing obstructions etc must surely outweigh the amount wasted by idling parked cars/buses.
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One of the councils up here are running adverts on the radio saying the usual, how bad it is for the environment etc if you leave your car engine running whilst parked up, so you will now be fined if caught doing this.
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new rules and guidance on enforcement are described at
www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents...f
actually, they have apparently been fining people in glasgow since february 2006 at least - according to:
thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=198022006
....City council officials in Glasgow said yesterday that they had issued 16 drivers with £20 fines for the offence since the local authority launched the crackdown two months ago. ....
camden also are taking a tough stance:
www.camden.gov.uk/print/ccm/content/environment/ai...l
....We use these powers to deal with the most serious offending drivers, such as coach and bus drivers. The officers are able to issue an on-the spot fine of £20 to drivers that do not turn off their engine when asked. We can issue a fine more than once to a driver. ....
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If this becomes commonplace, there will be traffic chaos as cars fail to restart.
Can you imagine it? Middle of winter, cars used for short journeys having their engines switched off every few minutes? Flat batteries galore.
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Hundreds of times, I'd have thought. Most diesel cars I've been in require about 1/4 second of cranking to fire up.
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At a current draw of about 400A
I wouldn't want to risk it.
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As the links posted by Dalglish make clear it's not aimed at running engines in stationary traffic but at those who leave cars and particularly buses idling at the roadside. Aside from emissions there is also the question of noise affecting surrounding property. Few things are more irritating then a waiting bus going boggler boggler outside your window at 06:30.
Having said that there's usually no good reason not to turn your engine off if held up for more than a minute in traffic. Local level crossing at Banbury Lane has now been replaced by a bridge; 20 minute waits were not unknown if the trains were speed restricted.
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Just driven the office Honda Hybrid thing for 50 odd miles, it's engine cuts out at traffic lgihts at junctions - very disconcerting. Bizzare. Dangerous if it's not your every day car.
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Dangerous, PU? Doesn't the thing go again when you press the go pedal?
What I was thinking was, how do you tune your 6-carb Ferrari without doing quite a bit of idling as you listen down the trumpets with your stethoscope, twiddle screws etc... Every 1,000 miles too.
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Nah, you've got to put it first gear, which is fine if it's your usual mount and are used to it. Got to use it again tonight for the same trip or risk a nice stripey BMW.
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Hi, FullChat, I can assure that not wearing a saet belt whilst stationary is an offence on a public highway as you are deemed to be driving the car. I.e. if a 10 year old was sitting in the drivers seat even with a seat belt on he is deemed to be in control of the car i.e. driving. In addition to leave a vehicles driving seat whilst on a pulpic highway, which a layby still is, is I assure you a road traffic offence. I know I was done for it when I left my friend in the car whilst I popped in to the tabaconist for some of my fovourite mints, came out to find a police officer waiting. This was back in 1972. People keep doing this outdise cash machines and the like. IT IS A ROAD TRAFFIC OFFENCE. Do you not think the two policemen would have pulled me up on it if I had been wrong. The excessive Idling fixed fine has been here ( Scotland ) since Jan 3rd from memory. Regards Peter
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Peter D.
I will take it on the chin re 'allowing a vehicle to idle' ; as they say you learn something every day!
However I will take issue with the remainder of your points. I will try to be brief but unfortunately to demonstrate the legislation and 'case law' requires some cutting and pasteing.
" ROAD -
I n relation to England and Wales, means any (length of) highway and any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes. (The words in brackets are added to create the definition in the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.) It always includes obvious public highways, footpaths and bridle ways maintained by government agencies or local authorities."
"A hard shoulder may be seen to form part of a road. A more delicate question could arise with regard to a lay-by, but where it is designed to serve only as a temporary stopping place incidental to the function of the road it may well be correct to treat it as part of the road. "
It is generally accepted that the road extends to the boundies of properties at its extremities.
The terms 'drive' and 'driving' appears on numerous occasions in road traffic legislation, however, when someone is or is not 'driving' a motor vehicle is not defined by statute. There is a large volume of case law relating to this particular subject and the majority of it has appeared as a consequence of the drink/driving provisions. The subject may be summed up fairly simply:
Whether or not someone is driving is predominantly a matter of fact and degree, and the court or jury will make the final decision in each individual case.
DRIVE -
Case law has laid down two tests:
1 R v McDonagh 1974 (at C177) which states:
'the essence of driving is the use of the driver's controls for the purpose of directing the movement of the car however the movement is produced' .
2 Edkins v Knowles 1973 (at C179) which deals with the point at which driving stops.
1 The vehicle does not have to be moving. A driver is still driving until he has completed the normal operations such as applying the handbrake, that occur at the end of a journey.
2 A vehicle may halt temporarily such as at traffic lights. Each case will have to be looked at using three questions:
a) What was the purpose of the stop ?
b) How long was the vehicle stopped ?
c) Did the driver get out of the vehicle ?
Therefore being parked in a lay-by does not constitute 'driving' - 'in charge' maybe but not 'driving'.
SEAT BELTS
Requirement for adults to wear adult belts
5(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every person:
(a) DRIVING a motor vehicle (except a two-wheeled motor cycle with or without a sidecar);
(b) riding in a front seat of a motor vehicle (except a two-wheeled motor cycle with or without a sidecar); or
(c) riding in a rear seat of a motor car or a passenger car which is not a motor car;
must wear an adult belt.
So you will see that to wear a seat belt you must be DRIVING which we have established the Police Officer you challenged was not!!
AND just to cap it all:
Exemptions
6(1) The requirements of regulation 5 do not apply to:
(f) a person driving or riding in a vehicle while it is being used for fire brigade or in England, fire and rescue authority or POLICE purposes................
However it is considered that Police Officers should wear seatbelts for safety reasons(of course) and to set an example.
QUITING
Regulation 107 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 creates an offence of leaving a motor vehicle unattended without switching off the engine and applying the parking brake.
107(1) No person shall leave, or cause or permit to be left, on a road a motor vehicle which is not attended by a person licensed to drive it unless the engine is stopped and any parking brake with which the vehicle is required to be equipped is effectively set,,unless exempted by paragraph (2).
(2) The requirement specified in paragraph (1) as to the stopping of the engine shall not apply in respect of a vehicle:
(a) being used for ambulance, fire brigade or in England fire and rescue authority or POLICE PURPOSES.
However I would suggest that this was more intended for use at a scene with blue lights etc switched on, but that is not what the legislation says.
I'm sorry if this has not been presented to DVDs standards but I must learn a bit more about how to alter the lettering etc,!!
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Fullchat
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