I agree with the reduction in power for age bands. Perhaps for the first two years a limit of 90bhp, then for the next two 120bhp and then unrestricted.
I know it doesnt stop the invincible attitude but it restricts the tools that can be used and would probably spawn a range of 'mini' cars like in Japan etc.
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Hmmm, while the young are statisically more likely to be killed or injured, is this because many don't wear their seatbelts, we have alreay seen on the other thread how (as I suspected) half the people killed couldn't be bothered to wear seatbelts, and as young people tend to be less likely to wear them maybe just simply belting up would save them, if so, that's there lookout, as everyone knows you should in this day and age.
Also, young people seem to be high on drugs, don't they say 27% of people who die in crashes have traces of narcotics in their blood?
Add this to the fact that car thefts are more likely to be perpetrated by ferral youngsters, then it shows how correlation is not neccessarily causation.
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Any good driving instructor will tell you you do not learn to drive until you have passed you test, how about introducing pass plus as a obligatory course instead?
If you make these new rules for new drivers, then maybe there should be new rules for old drivers too. Re-test when you reach 65, lessons in how new cars work etc.
You see so much bad driving from old people, especially on Motorways etc, largely because when they learnt to drive things were a lot different than they are today, and i wouldnt mind hedging a bet that alot of senior drivers would fail a reation test.
I fully agree that there should be stricter controls on drivers, but it needs to be across the board, not just young drivers.
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More difficult tests for young drivers is certainly not the answer. The problem is to do with age: you can't put an old head on young shoulders, to quote a hackneyed cliché. Young people, as Lordy has stated, seem to think they are invincible.
I know that when I was seventeen, and had just passed my test, I was totally irresponsible. I drove far too fast for the prevailing conditions and, fortunately, never had an accident.
Even if you limit the size of engine, modern cars will still be capable of speeds in excess of eighty miles per hour. There probably isn't a solution short of raising the age for a licence to 25 plus, and this really isn't feasible.
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make everyone irrespective of age go and look at a holding yard for accident recovered vehicles let them see the blood and tissue inbedded in the trim and also occasionally the missing fingers from the torso and i will tell you now its the most jaw dropping thing they will ever see,its far better than any lecture because you can actually see where real people have died.
--
\"a little man in a big world/\"
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More difficult tests for young drivers is certainly not the answer.
Why oh why oh why not?
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>> More difficult tests for young drivers is certainly not the answer. >> Why oh why oh why not?
Simply because it has little to do with driving ability. Young people will be able to pass tests, and still drive as if they know it all and nothing untoward will happen to them. It's a symptom of youth.
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Agree with what cheddar says, plus skid pan training to learn proper car control, not just how to cope at 30mph.
The IAM do a 'Max Driver' scheme which is the Advanced Driving course/test, at a reduced cost, with the promise of 25% off insurance if you pass it. I would suspect for many this is still "not cool", despite being a partnership scheme with Max Power magazine.
www.biker247.com/news/364.asp
www.max-driver.com/whatis.asp (caution- "lad mag" style website!)
Young drivers seem to have a feeling of invincibility, which I think is very difficult to remove. This does sound somewhat defeatist though.
I hate to say it but the thing that slowed me down was writing a car off when I was 19. Very luckily this happened on a country road with nobody else involved, and I was not seriously injured. Im obviously not suggesting have everyone crash to learn they are not invincible (with the potential for the tragic events such as you mention).
I cannot think of a SAFE way of getting the same mix of fear, humiliation, and potential financial hardship, etc.
You could have a provisional "low powered car" period, but still also need to educate drivers better than the current system.
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All a waste of time.
Male youth have been killing themselves at speed since the introduction of the internal combustion engine. Indeed many did it on horses before that time.
The only two real cures are raising the minimum age of driving to 26 or enforced removal of testosterone levels by medical intervention.
Neither are acceptable in a free society.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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I don't there is anything that can be done.
Locally and recently a young couple were killed in a car - no other vehicle involved, hit a tree. Driver had two friends also killed in accidents very recently and independantly.
Some youngsters not only feel invincible, but the best drivers. Us oldies who may have had the odd near miss and survived know differently and know our limits a little more.
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Most of the young drivers I know, including my two sons 18 & 22, would not be affected by a more stringent test. They, and most of their friends, would prepare for and pass any test we care to throw at them.
Nor, unfortunately would limiting the cars be very practicable, most of them drive smallish engined cars anyway and still seem to get more than enough out of them.
I believe the answer lies in education to get them to realise the dangers in situations, speeds etc. My younger son is the only one of his crowd of friends to even have done pass plus.
If you want a legislative suggestion maybe limiting the number of passengers would reduce accident levels a bit, I know I am most worried about my 18 year old when he is off somewhere with 3 or 4 other teenage lads in the car.
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A night out with lordy?
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Why not just accept that these things will always happen?
I should by rights have had far more accidents when I first started driving, and I'm thankful I didn't. But there will always be others that aren't so lucky. That's what it is, fate, luck, call it what you want.
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Most of the young drivers I know, including my two sons 18 & 22, would not be affected by a more stringent test. .........>>
.............>> I believe the answer lies in education to get them to realise the dangers in situations, speeds etc. My younger son is the only one of his crowd of friends to even have
done pass plus.>>
Slightly contradictory Lordy if I may say so, what would be the aim of stricter test if not to educate?
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Slightly contradictory Lordy if I may say so, what would be the aim of stricter test if not to educate?
Firstly it was me rather than Lordy you quoted.
Secondly from what my 18 year old has told me one of the main good bits of the pass plus was that he felt it was educational lots more about the why and what if of driving.
Learning to drive in the first place wasn't education it was training, gathering the skills required to perform a specific set of tasks on a specific date. That's how many 18 year olds see it.
They already know everything about driving, learning is just to get them through the test, and , by the way, once hey have passed their tests they are of course totally invulnerable.
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Firstly it was me rather than Lordy you quoted.
Doh, apologies to both.
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The reason that new drivers are involved in a disproportionate number of accidents is mainly down to a lack of experience. It has little to do with age, skill, reaction times or eyesight etc. Since most new drivers are young, it obviously follows that young drivers will be the highest insurance risk. It takes several years for new drivers to encounter examples of all of the multitude of hazardous situations that can arise, and to learn from them. Sometimes you have to learn from your own mistakes. If the minimum age for driving was raised to, say, 30 then it would be the 30 to 35 age group that would have the most accidents.
Unfortunately, experience is something that you have to acquire. And it takes time, regardless of how old you are when you learn to drive.
--
L\'escargot.
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The reason that new drivers are involved in a disproportionate number of accidents is mainly down to a lack of experience. It has little to do with age L\'escargot.
Can't agree with that, from observation of teenage sons & friends youth and testosterone have an awful lot to do with it.
My 40 year old brother in law passed his test last year, while he is still inexperienced I don't think he is anything like as likely to do handbrake turns or show off driving as my 18 year old's mates.
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If you want a legislative suggestion maybe limiting the number of passengers would reduce accident levels a bit, I know I am most worried about my 18 year old when he is off somewhere with 3 or 4 other teenage lads in the car.
Now that is a good idea, I wrote off my mum's car when I was 18 with 4 passengers, no injuries bar my pride though it could easily have been very nasty.
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A driving license is a privilege and not a right!
A license needs to percieved as being hard earned, something to be respected and cherished.
It seems to me that too many 17 year olds seem to think that they have a right to get on the road, I know I did when I was that age, I almost counted the days from my 14th birthday!
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The son of one of my colleagues is coming up to seventeen. When we were discussing the accident on Monday, we both agreed that it would have been a good idea to get him, and his mates out of bed and come along with me to see at first hand the devestation caused. I fear however, that this sort of shock tactic would only have a short term effect.
Limiting the number of passengers a young driver can carry seems a very sensible idea. The herd mentality does strange things to the brain. Limiting power output or engine capacity until you have been driving for three years could also make a difference.
Ultimately, TVM is entirely correct. 'Boys will be boys'. I felt the same at seventeen. Had a few close shaves but was fortunate enough never to have an accident.
--
let me be the last to let you down....
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Strict Dads. Fear and respect. I was allowed full used of the family car when I passed but the fear of having to face the old man was a far greater concern than killing anyone or getting points. As a learner, I drove all over the North-west and Midlands with him while practising. He taught me all the things that weren?t in the test - lane discipline, block-changing, watching what the front of the car is doing as you reverse into a space, left-foot-braking (little did I know what an issue that would turn out to be). He also taught me to take pride in the way I drove. He trusted me with all his cars for 20 years although he?s decided his 2 litre Octavia is too fast for me so I?m barred from that one. (Bless him).
Other than that I agree with Lordy about shock tactics. When you?ve seen a gorgeous teenage girl lying smashed up more than 30 metres away from the point of impact it stays with you a long time.
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watching what the front of the car is doing as you reverse into a space,
Thread hijack; what does that mean?
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Right on BBD; the same for me.
I learned to drive in Dad's brand new Volvo 244DL, paid for in cash after a lot of hard saving over many years. I really *felt* the trust that was placed in me and would have been horrified after the test to go home one day and start the conversation "Daaaaaaaad.......I have something to tell you". Even before my test he also taught me things of real life benefit including taking me out specifically because it had snowed hard (winter of 1982 or 1983 I recall) and he wanted me to learn proper basic winter driving control techniques. Top bloke is my Dad. I'm not so sure though that I would be as trusting with the V70 2.4T parked on the drive if I had offspring about to learn or recently qualified! I guess I can only answer that when I have such offspring and I know how they have developed.
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Oh yeah I had snow lessons too SjB. Came in handy too considering where I ended up. There?s something great about dads when it comes to motoring. Always there to pick up the pieces (mine?s a retired engineer). Even as recently as this summer, he was with me when I drove over a pontoon bridge in Gdansk and tore the exhaust off. While I was fiddling around trying to get the jack out to affect temporary repairs, he jumped in impatiently and drove it two wheels onto a high curb so I could fit under it without jacking it. I never would have thought of that.
watching what the front of the car is doing as you reverse into a space,
Thread hijack; what does that mean?
- you know when you reverse into a space, carefully peering out the back window, blissfully unaware that your front end has swung around and taken off the bumper of the car parked opposite.
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- you know when you reverse into a space, carefully peering out the back window, blissfully unaware that your front end >> has swung around and taken off the bumper of the car parked opposite.
:^D
That makes sense.
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There?s something great about dads when it comes to motoring
Yup, BBD; as well as the aforementioned practical driving help, from my teenage years I remember:
Interest free loans on demand (you learn later what the parents sacrificed to offer this facility)
A personal filling station service with free petrol
A driveway to service you car on
An unlimited supply of coffee (okay; thanks Mum!)
A tool for every job
A spare pare of hands
A tow to the garage on the occasions when the job goes wrong
Dinner at the end of it (okay; thanks again Mum)
A free recovery service when you break down sixty miles from home at 01:00am
Unlimited University of Life experience if you're prepared to listen
To this day (I'm coming up 42 now) I still value his motoring judgement and opinion and I'm not often disappointed.
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(English teacher turns in his grave)
pare=pair! ;-)
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SjB,
As the father of a couple of "children" in their mid 20s I can tell you that you have missed a few things off the list!!
Loans? not only interest free but somehow capital repayment free also!
Weekly check of oil, tyres, washer fluid. Strange how shopaholic teenagers don't know where to buy these items!
Cleaning of cars, purchase of the various products to do this.
Payment to various garages to allow cars to be collected after service/repair ("Not had time to go to bank/forgot chequebook etc")
Annual subscription to RAC for last 10 years.
I could go on but I would sound as if I begrudged them the things I (and Mum) do. Instead I should be grateful that
a) They have usually had a car that is (sometimes old but)roadworthy and safe
b) That both are sensible (but quite fast!) drivers who have so far not done anything daft that has resulted in injury to them or their friends.
I remember being a bit daft when I first poassed my test but in those days there were far fewer cars on the road, I lived in a fairly remote a quiet area and there were lots of forestry commmission roads/tracks where we could go and practice handbrake turns, four wheel drift (never did quite manage that, unlike Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Moss, Hawthorn and Fangio - that dates me!!).
Locally two cars have (fatally)crashed with youngsters in in the last couple of weeks - always seems to be cars with 4 or 5 17 to 20 yr olds in. Very sad loss of young life.
Solutions? The ingenuity of youth will always find a way round them.
--
Phil
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Whilst I agree that most in the young age groups are idiots, what about people like myself who arent part of the brain washed speed freak herd, who actually use their car to get from A to B and not cruising with a big fat subwoofer blasting away?
OK I admit the group percentage isnt overwhelming, but it still would be a pain in the back side if what cheddar mentions comes into play.
Also there's no point in limiting capacity, no doubt they'll tune the hell out of the engine anyway.
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OK I admit the group percentage isnt overwhelming, but it still would be a pain in the back side if what cheddar mentions comes into play.>>
As I have said I could not wait to learn to drive however now, 20 + years on, I can see that it would have made little diference to me if I had started to drive at 18 as opposed to 17.
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The son of one of my colleagues is coming up to seventeen. When we were discussing the accident on Monday, we both agreed that it would have been a good idea to get him, and his mates out of bed and come along with me to see at first hand the devestation caused. I fear however, that this sort of shock tactic would only have a short term effect.
Also would depend on the person as to whether it would actually work or not. One of my friends is an auxillary firefighter and has been to various RTA's including those that involve the death of young drivers, yet this hasnt made him wear a seatbelt or even slow down(despite having 3 points on his licence!)
It is the attitude to driving and other road users that needs to be taught. People need to have the attitude that whilst driving is enjoyable like a lot of other things if you are stupid you will hurt urself or someone else. I am still classed as a young driver and like a lot of people i have had my share of near misses when i started driving some of which my parents dont know about. It is only as i have gained experience that i have got better. I dont think that limiting engine size would help as i had a small engined car and was actually quite nippy. It is only since i got a more powerful car that i have gained the attitude that this car can do more than i feel safe to do which i believe has actually calmed me down.
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Temporarily not a student, where did the time go???
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