thanks all. My Haynes Manual seems to have been mislayed or relocated to a 'very safe place', depending on which member of the family would like to deny responsibilty. Ahem..
Where on the engine etc would I look for the code please Screwloose? Sorry for the basic numptyness of this Q. Been a horrible long day.
Enjoy a great, reliable, weekend all.
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Labael on the top of the cam cover and on alabel on the inside of the boot. Regards Peter
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Ed
As well as Peter's suggestions; it may well be on the stuck-in label inside the front cover of the service book.
[You've had a bad day too? Were you also taking the dash out of a Citroen?]
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OK, looked in boot, cam cover & service book & all concur on the engine code being only two digits, which are 2E.
Hope this means something!
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Ed
Thanks for finding that, albeit unexpected, code. 2E is indeed one of the relevant 2.0ltr codes, but should not normally appear on a '95 car, as available data suggests it was only used in '93-94. It's just possible that, during the early-nineties recession, this car was built some time before it was registered. [A "hangover" car in trade parlance.]
Whatever the reason; we now know that the engine management set-up on this example is a Digifant ML5.9 controlled by air volume metering. The 2E wiring diagram confirms that if indeed there was no 12volt feed to the coil - again, if correctly tested - that circumstance could only have been caused by a fault in the ignition switch, or in the directly related circuit.
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Many thanks Screwloose! Garage have just called. Been through the diagnostics & brillaintly they have managed to get it replicate the fault. The heavily suspected culprit is a current relay in position three above fuse box. White box, with 30 on the top, with VAG part number 165 906 381 on the side. Master technician removed it & used an older vsn off the shelf, end of fault. Oddly enough he tells me that this part was originally in a black colour & was changed due to it having a known fault.Rare for these new white ones to fail he says. he's 90% sure that's the issue, but says not to park up in the middle of nowhere just yet. I will also need to replace the one (older fault prone one) he stuck in in the near future. No reason to doubt him-sharp right on the ball kind of guy.
Incidentally he did prise it apart in front of me & it looks clean & shiny, although it is soldered into a PCB, which raised his eyebrows as he thought the reason they uprated them in the 1st place was due to indifferent soldering.
Err, what exactly is a current relay? Normal relay, yes understand that. You can get as Kirchoffian as you like!
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Ed
That engine-control relay [colloquially known as "relay 109"- though it also appears numbered as 3; 30; 219 and 428 in different applications] has been a frequent source of trouble and has been modified endlessly ever since it's original introduction. [The exact details of which have now become lost in the mists of time.]
It's a very commonly failing component and fits your symptoms perfectly - with the single, crucial, exception of that reported loss of feed to the coil; which is a direct circuit beyond it's control. Confirmation of it's complicity is easily established by scrutinizing the soldered joints on that internal PCB.
In virtually every case of intermittant loss of relay-switched circuit continuity there will be a hairline crack in the solder surrounding one of the larger connexions. [It's other modes of failure, loss of attraction etc., are usually betrayed by a pungent odour of burning - the "sniff test!"]
Sadly; [thankfully!] my symbolically-challenged[?] keyboard precludes any extensive discourse on Kirchoff's Laws. In any case, the imprecise description "current relay" can only strictly accurately, if pedantically, be said to apply to any relay "currently" in your possession or use.
This particular relay has little to distinguish it from many others of similar type; it is merely a simple electrically-controlled remote switch. It's only feature of note is it's ability to be functionally monitored by the ECU; though, in cases of failure, an appropriate fault-code rarely seems to be present.
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Srewloose
Thank you for your ecellently precise & deeply knowledgable posts. Pleasure to read. Relay in front of me, no clear evidence of solder cracking-all look pretty good & is really securely anchored to the PCB. It does have a slight aroma of singe though! It is slight.
Oh well, the 10% doubt still firmly there, via the AA's diagnosis of lack of feed. I think I might give the mastertech at Marin's a quick call on Monday & check if he found the same thing. AA bloke was a bit of a geezer. When he towed me into the garage, one of his colleagues was coming in the opposite direction, so colleague followed him in for a chat. When asked what was up with it, my AA guy gave him the F4 response...
So tomorrow I'll be mainly trying to recreate the initial fault-up to temp drives, always finishing up on my driveway.
How do I obtain the most current burn-proofed example of this pesky relay please? Not bothered about it having a VAG logo on it. Cheap would be good!
Thanks for the 'current' relay talk too. Enormous glass of your very favourite tipple at the bar for you. And a glass of vitriol for whoever designed that citroen's dash too!
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Ed
You may require intense light and some form of magnification to see a hairline crack easily: given the possible thermal component of this fault, that slight smell of burning may well be significant too.
I've not come across any non-genuine alternatives for one of these relays, so just obtain the latest one from your dealer [around £10-£13] and enjoy another 10+ years worth!
If you were also to equip yourself with that most useful of automotive tools, a simple 12volt electrical test light; [c.£3-£5 on e-bay] you'll be able to check the coil's feed [terminal 3; black wire] whenever the opportunity arises. Or, more hopefully, doesn't!
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You can get a digital multimeter for 5 quid in Maplins, which will be much more help than the lamp for charging problems, etc.
Sometimes the relay problem is the feed to the coil, PCB part. But other times it's a high resistance contact, due to dirt, etc. The later is hard to replicate/test as the contact resistance is dependant on the operating temperture of these relays, which if you feel them after a run, you'll realise is quite high, 45oC or so normally on the outside of the can, more under high reststance fault conditions. This is why some of the copper internals have tempering/rainbow colours too.
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Thanks to all the contributors on this thread. You have helped solve my headache (and wallet ache)
We had the exact same problem as in the o P with our MK3 98 golf 2.0. We've spent ages trying to track it down. Thought we had it sussed after the original coil pack failed and was replaced but problem kept coming back after one item or the next was replaced.
1. coil pack. Problem still infrequent
2. Distributor lead Problem becoming more prevelant
3. Distributor cap, barely starts anymore
4. engine speed sensor Now the car very infrequently starts. Will also cause us to spend big $$$'s on an auto elec that screws up the aftermarket alarm, central locking and immobiliser.
5. GoT Ya! Relay pack 30 ! Fixed it myself. Starts first time everytime
So thanks very much hope we have got it nailed. although hall sensor is also in the back of my mind....
Edited by 1SJ on 22/03/2010 at 01:48
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Thank you everyone, I had a nightmare time with a rogue mechanic charging me over £500s for fault finding and not finding anything. Very stressed and believed he was incompetent. So in distress did a ton of searching and found this thread.
Took out Relay pack 30 and ran current through and noticed the circuit was closing intertermmitingly! Solder the paths and the car has been starting up!
Ordered a new Relay pack 30 from VW garage for £11.
Thanks guys.
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i have just read this story i have the exact same car and funnly enough the same colour. i have the same problem with the cooling, reading cold when driving and heating up when stopped and as of tonight a drove my car for about 3 miles went into asda came out and my car wouldnt start, just kept ticking over. any1 have any ideas, how did you fix yours? thanks muchly ;)
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I had this problem where the car will not start. I do not hear the fuel pump run for some seconds when I turn on the igition. I replaced the ECU relay and the car started first time. This morning the fault is back again. What now?
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