girlydriver, have you calculated the actual fuel savings from driving a diesel?
I have been doing these calculations myself, and it is putting me right off the idea of a diesel.
Say the diesel car does 50mpg and the petrol one 40mpg. Over 10,000 miles the diesel fuel would cost £845 and the petrol £1,020 -- a saving of £170 for the diesel.
Sounds attractive, until you factor in the higher purchase price of the diesel, the cost of the more frequent oil changes, and -- as Aprilia pointed out -- the expensive complexity of modern diesels.
The diesel engines of 15 or 20 years ago were simple and easily maintained devices, but not so the new ones. I really like diesels myself, but nowadays I would only buy one if I was getting a new car or doing v high mileage.
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I'm getting 42mpg out of a 1.8 T-reg Vectra petrol - with a very light right foot, that is, and never exceeding an indicated 70. Less careful driving brings it down to about 34mpg.
You certainly don't want to be driving a Corsa/1.1yaris on motorways - not now you've been driving grown-up cars. You'll feel like you're actually pushing the car yourself.
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Air Con is STANDARD on Focus LX - certainly don't need a Ghia to get AC.
Focus 1.6 will be a good buy. I get 40+mpg on the Motorway from a 2.0 Mondeo, so you'll be even better with a 1.6 Focus.
Go for an LX, Ghia or a Zetec with Climate Pack. It has everything you need.
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Go for an LX, Ghia or a Zetec with Climate Pack. It has everything you need.
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Certainly the Ghia is full of toys.
Apart from the awful headlamp flasher, the main thing I do not like on the Ghia I drive is the steering wheel rim is too fat.
I enjoy the rest of it.
Be aware that the boot is not that big on the hatchback.
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"the cost of the more frequent oil changes, and -- as Aprilia pointed out -- the expensive complexity of modern diesels.
The diesel engines of 15 or 20 years ago were simple and easily maintained devices, but not so the new ones. I really like diesels myself, but nowadays I would only buy one if I was getting a new car or doing v high mileage."
Don't wish to get into an argument with you NW (who would?!), but what exactly is the evidence for these statements? Granted, Aprilia is someone who knows about these things, but he says "IF you have a major fault" not that you will have a major fault. Oil change intervals on modern diesels are the same as on petrols (12,500miles on mine and wifes older HDis, 18k on daughter's Renault dCi) and equate to about once a year for the average driver - would you run a petrol for longer without an oil change?? If you changed the oil twice as often in a diesel than petrol it would still only cost about an extra £20 a year. Anyway, petrols also have "expensive complexity" compared to their earlier brethren - fuel injection, ECUs etc. Were the earlier injection pumps on diesels any cheaper than the newer ones (allowing for inflation?)? Did they go wrong less frequently?
As I said on an earlier thread, we've had normally aspirated diesels (one of which was bought in preference to a turbo diesel 'cos there was less to go wrong!!!), Tds and 4 common rail diesels in the family (mostly Citroens, but also Renault). Several have done over 100k, the oldest HDi 80k, and NONE of them have ever had anything done to the engine except the occasional glowplug (usually at mileages of close to 100k), and cambelts (at specified intervals). We've never even had an injector replaced, so stories of "the expensive complexity of modern diesels" are meaningless to me.
Now, if you advised someone not to buy a diesel because of the premium you pay, because fuel savings are marginal, or because they are too noisy on start-up, or you don't like the engine characteristics, or you don't like the smell of diesel, fair enough, but I do find it odd that someone who has never owned a diesel (let alone a "modern" one) can advise someone not to buy one because of the high running costs of the "expensive complexity of modern diesels". And please don't just quote the price of an injection pump - someone quoted me £1000 about 20 years ago with the words "I wouldn't buy a car which might need one of those" - 20 years later I still haven't needed one (but probably tomorrow my daughter will ring up and say her Renault DCi - 50mpg on her commute - needs one, my son's C2 - 54 mpg, even though he drives it like Sebastian Loeb after 6 cans of Red Bull - will need one which will mean I won't be able to afford the one for my wife's Xantia HDi, or my Berlingo HDi)
I love the characteristics and reliability of these modern diesels!!
Phil
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I love the characteristics and reliability of these modern diesels!!
In reply to Phil:-
I take the point that modern cars are pretty reliable and "on the average" a Diesel car owner won't need a new injection pump or new injectors over, say, 100k miles of motoring. However, some unfortunate owners will have problems - I know this because my mate who repairs Diesel cars makes a steady living out of them. If you have problem with a modern HDi Diesel then the repair bill can be very large indeed - in fact it could easily write-off a four year old car. High-pressure Diesel fuel system components are **much** more expensive than petrol fuel system components and the system itself is more complex, with generally more sensors, pipework etc etc, especially if a turbo is involved. Added to all this is not knowing whether a previous owner has given the car a dose of petrol and there is a latent problem.
I can see the point of buying a Diesel car if there are substantial fuel cost savings to be made - but if not, then why take on a vehicle that is substantially more complex and expensive to fix if it *does* go wrong?
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Now, if you advised someone not to buy a diesel because of the premium you pay, because fuel savings are marginal, or because they are too noisy on start-up, or you don't like the engine characteristics, or you don't like the smell of diesel, fair enough, but I do find it odd that someone who has never owned a diesel (let alone a "modern" one) can advise someone not to buy one because of the high running costs of the "expensive complexity of modern diesels".
Phil, I have owned a diesel. Had a Peugeot 305 GRD estate for many years and loved it -- I bought it after my father had run a 305 van for a decade. Neither of them ever missed a beat, tho my Dad's one eventually expired at about 130,000 miles cos only the coolant hoses failed, and it cooked. He always said that was entirely his fault, not a flaw in the car. I'd still be happily running my own one if it hadn't been torched.
Now, if you read back, I did say that the fuel savings ain't that great, and may not balance the increased purchase cost.
So on the "definite" costs, there's probably not much in it -- more upfront for the diesel, offset by cheaper bills.
I had orginally written a longer post in which I used more nuanced words about the possible costs arising from complexity, but unfortunately it got lost because I closed my browser my mistake. So I just wrote a shorter post instead, which lost some of the nuances. Sorry - there should have been a big IF in there!
I'm sure you are not the only person to have very good experiencs with modern diesels -- if they were usually a bundle of trouble, we'd hear more about it.
If I was buying a new car, I'd almost certainly get one -- the economics there seem to stack up very well, and it's cheap enough to extend a warranty so that the risk would be covered for five years.
But what puts me off with an older secondhand car is the possible bills when things go wrong (and girlydriver's budget would probably get her a 4 or 5yo diesel rather than something newish). A friend's brother is an engine designer, and he gives much the same advice as Aprilia -- there is a lot of complex kit in there which is very expensive to replace.
I'm quite happy to accept any evidence about how reliable these engines really are in the long run. Aprilia always swems to me to talk very good sense and to know his stuff, but if someone could persuade me that his concerns are excessive, then I'd put a Xsara HDI on the top of my own shopping list!
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Aprilia, NW,
I see what you are saying and I wouldn't disagree that for most people the cost savings in fuel are not enough to make a diesel worthwhile. The point I was trying to make (maybe not too clearly!) is that it might be going a bit far to factor into your costs the cost of a new fuel pump when these (might?/ should?) last the lifetime of a car - after all do you consider the cost of a new gearbox when buying a car?
I also find, admittedly just from personal experience, (Aprilia obviously knows far more about the technical aspects) that diesels are very reliable and in about half a million miles of diesel driving, the only things we have had to replace/repair on the engines has been the occasional glowplug! On the other hand, if someone said they preferred petrol, that's their choice and I wouldn't argue with that! I prefer the characteristics of diesel, and especially these new common rail ones which seem to give good performance (well, good enough for me!) and good economy. Mind you, who am I to talk about preferences, my car is the same colour as Adam's!!
Anyway, good luck to girlydriver in her search for the right car for her (I presume it's not a him!!)
Phil
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